<div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>Dear Paul:</div><div><br></div><div>Don't you feel hesitant asking for for too much around here - not wanting to be misunderstood? :-) </div><div><br></div><div>But I do understand the bit about wanting to be an anthropologist, a businessman, an US army soldier, a religious minister, or engage in social service. </div><div><br></div><div>And I also completely agree about new technologies needing imagination. Just that imagination is not enough. Bloodthirst, rich "uncles" or angel investors, pliant staff, sheer luck, and friends in high places - WJC and HRC - may also help. </div><div><br>I am trying to write a paper on incubating social entrepreneurs of new technology products for the "Bottom of the Pyramid" market. Seems to me that such a thing itself is a social entrepreneurship business, and needs a combination of charity and commercial finance. <br><br>Whatever questions are asked of customers, I suggest thinking of what questions stove designers may be asked by a) charity bureaucrats, high on theoretical dope, or b) bankers. <br><br>I think dealing with bankers is far easier. Those are the questions we need to think about. I think GACC will gladly help. They have been doing interesting stuff on financial innovation. (Waiting for public output.) <br><br>You know, donors would tell you - like the did to Dr. Karve - that chimneys only put pollution outside. As if exposure rates are the same. <br><br>There are a few questions I would like to ask such donors. But I know the answers are pre-cooked and packaged for home delivery. <br><br></div><div>---</div><div>Jobs and Gates weren't the only ones in their markets. They survived, and their survival stories are not that pretty. (Steve, RIP. I only mean survival within this life on earth.)They were college dropouts. (I was kicked out. A badge of honor, after having been on Dean's Honor List.) </div><div><br></div><div>Why on earth do we have to justify improvement in the lives of the poor in the name of saving the earth? And that too to USEPA and US Department of Clinton?</div><div><br></div><div>Have we all become hellfire and brimstone evangelists? (I would, at a price. You see, I also want to be a businessman and a religious minister.) Bowing to the altar of Gore the Son of God, counting a hundred Mother Hillarys, sacrificing my brothers and sisters today in pursuit of high-cost energy so as to guarantee a better future for the great-great-grandchildren of St Nick (Stern) and Sant Pachauri?</div><div><br></div><div>Steve and Bill didn't have to market to USEPA. Pay a few million dollars to please bureaucrats with religious zeal to regulate everything in sight everywhere, even poor people's kitchens. </div><div><br></div><div>Oh, well. Let the Congress pass another Appropriations bill. <br><br>Another question has come up - "<a href="http://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/can-house-where-wood-burned-heat-really-be-called-green.html.">Can a house where wood is burned for heat really be called green?</a> (Treehugger, 1 August 2016) <br><br><br>Nikhil<br><br></div><div> </div><div><br>On Aug 30, 2016, at 12:15 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
Dear all,<br>
<br>
I totally agree with Ron's message below about needing to ask the
right questions.<br>
<br>
Asking our target (needy, impoverished, etc.) people what they would
want in a stove sounds logical, but would they "imagine" asking for
stoves that make char, or use small wood, or have a rather constant
flame for 40 minutes and longer? Maybe. But probably not.<br>
<br>
Back in the 1980s, when personal computers were just getting started
(Apple IIe, MS-DOS, etc), if you had asked educated Americans what
they wanted for personal communications, they would NOT have
answered with words like wireless internet on handheld small phones
that take pictures, send text messages, and do Google searches.
Dick Tracy's two-way wrist radio was still futuristic. Should Jobs
and Gates and others have been told to just give the people what
they ask for? Improved products virtually REQUIRE someone to bring
the new things to the masses. Are the masses ready for the new
items? <br>
<br>
Paul (what is below is a bit off topic, but you might find it
interesting. More important to read Ron's questions in his message
below mine.)<br>
<br>
In college I seriously considered majoring in anthropology
(simplistic definition is studying the way people/societies are) but
rejected it because I wanted to help people gain improvements,
essentially changing their lives (I hoped for changes for the
better), not staying as they are. <br>
<br>
By the way, I also rejected majoring in business because too often
profit motives are too dominant and self-serving. I also rejected
careers in social work, medicine, military (3 yrs in Army), and
religious ministry. I ended up as a univ. professor for 30 years.<br>
<br>
Do not misunderstand me. ALL those careers are and can be very
worthy. And preserving the status quo or making only small changes
MIGHT be better than major changes, sometimes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div>On 8/29/2016 10:15 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Cecil, Nikhil, list et al:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This
is the first time I have understood Cecil’s interview
methodology, where he says below his (and Crispin’s) method was:
“..<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><i>to minimally tweak </i></span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><i>traditional stoves</i></span><span> ..</span><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3">” This obviously is biased against
TLUDs and charcoal - making. I contend this also
underestimates the intelligence and desires of the rural cook.</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
wonder if any other person doing stove questionnaires or knows
of their existence has ever seen one that asked any question
pertinent to TLUDs? Examples of questions I would like to see
asked (and never have seen) are:</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1.
Would you consider a stove that could be paid off in months
from the charcoal you could make with it?</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2.
How would you rank the importance of using a stove that you
could leave unattended for an hour?</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3.
Would you consider buying a stove that could use very small
pieces of fuel?</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>4.
Would a stove that helped address global warming be important
to you?</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>5.
Would you consider a stove whose charcoal output could
possibly double the productivity of your garden?</font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></font></div>
<div>I assume questions are regularly asked about
emissions - so TLUDs might have a small consumer advantage
there. But one would have to know the relative advantage - such
as asking about a biomass cook stove that could be cleaner than
a kerosene stove. I doubt such health-related questions have
been asked.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>So
I ask Cecil (who I have known for decades) if he has ever asked
any stove questions like these above - or ever seen any such?
What answers would he expect? What would Nikhil (who I have
also communicated with decades ago) think would be the answers?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Aug 29, 2016, at 11:46 AM, <a href="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com" target="_blank">cec1863@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div style="line-height:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" lang="en-US">
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Greetings Traveller aka
Nikhil,</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Thank you for your
swashbuckling frankness about the fundamental
foolishness of expecting abstract ISO standards,
metrics, and household stove performance tests to lead
the stovers and stove producers of the planet into a
paradise of smokeless pollution free biomass cooking and
space heating.</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">From where I sit on the
sidelines these days I see a tragic perversion of the
potential for a holistic "science" of small household
stoves by many different competing commercial,
professional political, gender and lifestyle interest
groups. We are forced to fight the battle of armgeddon
simply to decide what parameters and assessment
methodologies can be trusted to guide the development of
simple $10 improved stoves for the 1/3 of humankind at
the bottom of the world scrum. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My question is how do we
generate a respectful conversations between the various
role players involved in the scrum to innovate, produce
and promote user friendly and responsive improved
household stoves that are affordable and can
successfully compete for market share without any
subsidy. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">That means the end of
outsourcing to China and the end of imported stoves
selling for ± $100 with or without carbon credits when
there are locally made stoves being produced,
distributed and sold for under $5 by traditional
artisans. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I am a backslid
(defrocked) anthropologist so the first thing I do is
investigate the already institutionalized stove
technologies and all of the stove management and fuel
use 'culture' which surrounds the TECHNOS with what used
to be called "ethno-science". The mrta-culture between
the stove and the plasma of knowledge and symbols might
be referred to as the human factors which mediate the
relationship between stove users and their stoves. OK.
That is where I choose to start. Other professional
stovers have other skills, interests and points of
intervention. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My contribution to a
hopefully respectful conversation with fellow stovers is
informed by decades of AT based self help develop
projects in South Africa. My bottom up development
process was guided and informed by my effort to answer
this question: how do we collaborate with partners and
potential beneficiaries so as to get the greatest
possible benefits for the largest number with the
smallest possible intervention and at the smallest
possible cost per brnefit/beneficiary????</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Unfortunately, the thrust
of BIG AID and BIG DEVELOPMENT agencies (remember Big
Nurse in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest?) is to
massively intervene from the top down and in the process
massively disrupt the traditional stove/fuel/pot/kitchen
layout/producer/</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">marketing "system". It is
worth pointing out that there is an indigenous
stove/fuel culture and economy in place that has been
cooking food, heating homes, making and selling stoves,
and supplying fuel for many generations.</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I only have one simple
suggestion about a possible master strategy: slow and
steady change strategy will radically out perform the
massive disruption strategy that is favored by Big
Development. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Crispin and I combined to
propose and demonstrate the feasibility of a stove
improvement develpment process in Mongolia and Java that
involved using stove science to minimally tweak
traditional stoves so that their emission and efficiency
performance eventually approaches the high stardards of
an EPA approved clean cookstove. </div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">IMO such high standards
are bureaucratic impositions that needlessly disempower
the stakeholers and role players in traditional <span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial">stove/fuel/produce<wbr>r
systems. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial">For me as a old man observing the counter
productivity of the stove wars in places like Sudan
and many other places in Africa, Asia and the Pacific.
If we are to make real progress in the small
stove/biomass fuel economy it is necessary for all
role players to take deep breaths, cool off,
depoliticize, speak kindly to colleagues, and grow the
common ground that unites us all in our quest for an
infinite series of apprpriate "good" little cooking
and heating stoves.</span></div>
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 sma<wbr>rtphone.</div>
<table style="background-color:white" width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div>
<div><b>From: </b>Traveller</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Monday,
August 29, 2016 10:13 AM</div>
<div><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank">neiltm@uwclub.net</a></div>
<div><b>Reply To: </b><a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank">miata98@gmail.com</a></div>
<div><b>Cc: </b>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re:
[Stoves] forced draft (Re: A Karve 13 August)</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Neil: <br>
<br>
Thank you. I learned a little about biochar from a
"stover" friend, guru from decades ago - Stephen
Joseph - back in 2008 but then lost track. I am glad
to read from you that there are consumer products now
that you consider "So versatile". <br>
<br>
It is a gross error to ignore versatility and
flexibility, and buy into the USEPA propaganda of
Water Boiling Tests. GACC could be a Faustian Bargain.
Except perhaps to those who pay the Clinton Foundation
to play at the gala performances of WJC and HRC. <br>
<br>
I wonder if WHO Is fooling EPA - that its IAQ
guideline is to be taken as Moses' Fifteenth
Commandment (all others can be ignored, just like
WHO's OAQ guideline is) - of EPA is fooling WHO - that
its ratings based on a silly test protocol for
emission rates and area modeling will somehow
translate into mass acceptance and reduction in
premature mortality. (There will always be premature
mortality; the GBD people will find something else to
blame it on, for example boredom with academia.)<br>
<br>
Versatile. Durable. What a breath of fresh air,
compared to the intellectual smoke of Washington, DC.
<br>
<br>
If we are to continue this "cobenefits" paradigm - the
pretension of saving trees, lives, and climate - we
might as well add in the co-benefits of biochar, and
assign value to customer satisfaction. The customer is
sovereign, not the expert class engaged in mutual
back-scratching. <br>
<br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
---------</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 5:56
AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank">neiltm@uwclub.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span>On 19 Aug 2016 at 19:25, Traveller
wrote:<br>
<br>
> I remembered how some charcoal fires used
to be run with a hand<br>
> blower. I found a modern version on
Amazon.in, here<br>
</span>> <<a href="http://www.amazon.in/Grill-Blower-Charcoal-Grills-Fireplaces/dp/B011" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.in/Grill-Bl<wbr>ower-Charcoal-Grills-Fireplace<wbr>s/dp/B011</a><br>
> 7F268 0><br>
<br>
These can sometimes be purchased for as little as
one GB pound in pound<br>
shops in the UK (and a little more on ebay), and
are excellent for<br>
starting or reviving volcano kettles when there is
no wind and/or<br>
reluctant fuel, or for reviving a TLUD which has
gone out, by simply<br>
blasting it into the top until the flame rekindles
well enough to<br>
sustain, or less urgently applying it gently to
the bottom outside<br>
airholes which can help a flagging NDTLUD revive
sometimes. I use it as<br>
an occasional 'rescue' in other words. Sustained
use of it would be<br>
tedious as well as occupying both hands. They
seem surprisingly durable<br>
as well. I've had the same one for years.<br>
<br>
Just cooked a nice omelette on one of the Chinese
NTLUDs using very fine<br>
dry wood chip - almost chain saw sawdust size.
This restricts the<br>
primary air nicely for a lengthy sustained
moderate heat, but there is no<br>
possibility to add fuel at the end of the batch to
keep it going, yet<br>
even such micro char successfully fuels our BBQ.
Using much larger fuel<br>
allows for indefinite burn time whether beginning
the burn as a TLUD or<br>
not. So versatile these stoves. Much as I
enjoyed the Reed fan woodgas<br>
campstoves, I no longer take them on trips now,
but still use them<br>
occasionally at home.<br>
<br>
Neil Taylor<br>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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