<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Teddy, Stovers, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I too am planning researching wood vinegar for uses. You gave a great web site with a lot of information. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My first experiments are to determine the toxicity it has on general soil microbes (EC50 LC50) based on CO2 production. Then study its toxicity on seed germination and then plant vigor when used as a soil drench. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you have suggestions on projects that I might have the equipment and ability to test out please let me know. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 14, 2016, at 7:19 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Teddy you never cease to amaze me with you wood vinegar stories. Thanks for this wide ranging tour and the earlier storied. </div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">What an imaginative group of ideas. </div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Could you explain a little about how you collect the material? Does the water content of the wood make a difference to the quality? Quality?</div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">It seems the byproducts are going to be more valuable than the product. Now that Rwanda has achieved charcoal sustainability, according to my WB contact. A review of sources seems to support this. The future looks bright as well. All the wood comes from private farms and the farmers make money selling the charcoal. They should therefore be collecting byproducts, condensing what will, draining what is liquid. It would enhance rural income and lower expenses while supplying fuel to the urban areas. </div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">To complete the efficiency circle they could apply the heat to something like ethanol making as a lighting or cooking fuel. </div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Best regards</div><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 941px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Crispin<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Thanks for bringing this up, too add my two cents, I have been doing some tinkering with wood vinegar as a by-product from charcoal making in the Kenyan market and it is being very well received so far - <a href="http://kenyacharcoal.blogspot.co.ke/2016/05/how-to-make-your-own-wood-vinegar-with.html" class="">http://kenyacharcoal.blogspot.co.ke/2016/05/how-to-make-your-own-wood-vinegar-with.html</a> <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We mostly have been advocating using it as a wood preservative and alternative agro-chemical for small holder farmers who are making their own charcoal from branches, corn cobs etc. It seems to work a dream for stopping termites, wood borers and also killing mealybugs (in fact one kiln customer is now selling it to 3 flower farms for this, at an astounding 14$ a liter in comparison he only gets about $0.40c for a kilo of charcoal (wood vinegar yield is about 10:1) which was what he was initially after for briquetting to start off with!). And there is also the Stockholm tar by-product that can be used on for sealing leaks on roofs, cattle and horse hooves, the neck of the 'low hen' and to stop ox-peckers on rangeland cows and caulking boats etc. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Internationaly, google brings up some intersting stats, here is a link to the purported 3 million$ a year wood vinegar industry</div><div class=""><a href="https://www.psmarketresearch.com/press-release/global-wood-vinegar-market" class="">https://www.psmarketresearch.com/press-release/global-wood-vinegar-market</a> mainly in East Asia. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here is another good short history of it as a bio-pesticide <a href="http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOASJ/TOASJ-4-111.pdf" class="">http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOASJ/TOASJ-4-111.pdf</a> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All in all I am amazed at how many uses there are for this and what little research has been done on it in an African context. Considering how much smoke is released during typically traditional charcoal burning and how many synthetic chemicals like gladiator we buy here for wood preservative I am quite excited to see how things develop. Wood vinegar was even on the news in Uganda the other day <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iemTPlACxLs" class="">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iemTPlACxLs</a> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I have hesitated on marketing it as liquid smoke food flavoring even though we have had many requests and very good feedback from the few chefs who took some of the first samples, two West African friends said they have used it for adding an 'authentic' taste to jollof rice cooked on gas and had previously been importing it to Kenya, one Kenyan chef used it for marinades and BBQ sauce and another for the best smoked eye watering habanero hot sauce you've ever tasted. </div><div class="">They said it has a very strong flavor (made from acacia xanthophloea) and they only needed to use 1 or 2 drops per 5 liters which seems quite diluted. Any way to each their own tastes I suppose which seems more and more recently in Nairobi, the influence of global culinary trends such as smokey tasting food is really taking hold given our BBQ loving culture. I have also heard that BUrger King and the like use it for that flame grilled taste, but am not sure about that. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My next step is to try make wood vinegar soap and see if it works to control ticks and fleas on livestock and pets...if anything it'll give old Fido a nice BBQ smell! </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Teddy </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class="x_gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="x_gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class="">Cookswell Jikos</b><br class=""><a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke/" target="_blank" class="">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div><div class=""><a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos" target="_blank" class="">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div><div class=""><a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div><div class="">Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br class=""></div><div class="">Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div><div class="">P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div><div class=""><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG" width="71" height="96" class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font color="#008000" face="Tms Rmn" class="">Save trees - think twice before printing</font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Tms Rmn" class="">.</font><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="x_gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 8:00 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div lang="EN-CA" class=""><div class=""><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Nikhil<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The low smoke-level fish produced in a modern manner involve drying the fish first in a low or very low smoke environment, then adding smoky flavour afterwards. This latter action takes place at a low temperature.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Investigations on Ghana earlier this year showed clearly that holding the processing temperature below 105 C prevented the oils in the fish from rising much about 85 and resulted in PAH(4) levels there were either undetectable or 1 part per billion. This was not a ‘modern’ approach. It was done using a wood fire and an air-gas mixing chamber that preceded the drying chamber. With a clean fire and adequate air mixed in, the temperature in the chamber was not able to get above 120 C.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">In one case the fish were so clean they looked fresh, but were in fact dried. At that stage we had to consider how to add smoke in a separate operation or in the same chamber but at the end of the cycle.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">This demonstrates that smoke flavour can be added using liquid smoke, and that the same result can be obtained using very clean combustion plus added smoke, or that it can be achieved using a new form of dryer that permits full control over the processing temperature and the ‘smokiness’ of the fire at the end.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Not every one of the PAH(4) content was very dependent on the smoke, actually, which surprised me. It was far more likely that the Benzo(a)pyrene was dependent on temperature, and 2 of the other 3 dependent on actual smokiness. Not sure about the last one. Maybe a bit of both.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I am pretty sure I will never add ‘liquid smoke’ to anything I eat. I totally do not trust that it is safe. Smoke can contain horrible organic compounds so the cleaner the better. Burn the lot.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks for highlighting<span class="x_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></font></span></span></p><span class="x_HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p></font></span><div class=""><div class="x_h5"><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="x_MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">I remember some exchanges between Crispin and some others about tar formation in chimneys. I also remember Ron and Paul discussing biochar. <br class=""><br class="">The story below mentions stove pipes; I suppose that is for large metal stoves, not exhaust as such. But I wonder if there are commercial applications of smoke.<br class=""><br class=""></span><a href="http://www.eater.com/2016/6/15/11945944/liquid-smoke-what-is-it" target="_blank" class="">Liquid Smoke: The History Behind a Divisive Culinary Shortcut</a>, Matthew Sedacca, <a href="http://eater.com" class="">Eater.com</a>, 15 June 2016.<br class=""><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class=""><br class="">I think stove designs that capture the smoke within tubes should earn some health credits and avoided black carbon GHG credits anyway. If liquid smoke qualifies under biochar - i.e., it can be used for plant growth - then there will be biochar credits for GHG avoidance, health benefits of soil productivity increase. With a million dollars, any model can be tweaked. <br class=""><br class="">Hello, EPA? Is liquid smoke carbon sequestration?<br class=""><br class="">Can collected smoke - dry or liquid - be purified for industrial uses of carbon? I tinkered with coke and metal products industry decades ago. <br class=""><br class="">It's not the emissions but where they go how, that is the question. <br class=""><br class="">To EPA or not EPA. <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""><br class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class="">______________________________<wbr class="">_________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr class="">lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org/</a><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div><span id="cid:33981510-6142-48D1-BBA9-35E6DB84EB02"><Mail Attachment.txt></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; 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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>