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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Tony,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If you share your photos on the list there
could be someone who can assist you if I cannot. As I said the rocket
mixer concept is just in its beginning tests. Your
best possibility is to put the photos on the list, and then we can all
go from there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vovers1@gmail.com href="mailto:vovers1@gmail.com">Tony Vovers</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 22, 2016 7:30
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Stove talk</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P dir=ltr>Dear Kirk</P>
<P dir=ltr>I am very interested to understand better your use of mixers with
rocket stoves. </P>
<P dir=ltr>I am working with Permaculture farm and a school in Bali Indonesia
on trying to get some poorly performing but beautiful looking Cob rocket
Stoves to perform better.<BR>Would you be OK to share some information and
suggestions with me, I can share with you some photo and information on the
stoves and typical fuel we have here.</P>
<P dir=ltr>I suspect the design we have was designed for both cooking and
heating which is not really suitable for our tropical environment.</P>
<P dir=ltr>Tony Vovers</P>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 22 Sep 2016 3:04 p.m., "kgharris" <<A
href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</A>> wrote:<BR
type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There has been a lot of negativity on the list
lately which Ron has been addressing. I don't want to get caught up in
this</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>. I would prefer to contribute
stove talk to the list that suits my interests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>To this end I have attached some photos of one
of my current projects, using in a rocket stove the rapid mixing techniques
which make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove very clean burning. This
project is just getting started and so the technique is not yet
developed. It will hopefully be interesting for the
members on the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=miata98@gmail.com
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion of
biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, 2016
10:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] WHO's for whom?
For what?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nikhil cc List</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>You continue to miss the
point. At this site: <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.<WBR>bioenergylists.org/mailman/<WBR>listinfo/stoves_lists.<WBR>bioenergylists.org</A>,
the first line reads:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: medium"><I>This
discussion is provided to help people develop better stoves for
<U><B>cooking</B></U> with <U><B>biomass</B></U> fuels in
<U><B>developing</B></U> regions. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>The key words are cooking,
biomass, developing. Your message below addresses none of
these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph proves the same - a waste
of bandwidth.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>If you wish to talk about
<I>“fuel ideologies”</I> (your last two words)- I think it best you
find another list. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find it insulting to
many when you use terms like <I>“abuse of science”, “spurious
theories”, “concocted data”, "volunteered blindness” and
“saviors…market ADALYs</I>” - none with any semblance of an example.
I cannot recall any such negative writing by anyone that is so
devoid of proof.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>The purpose of the ISO
work (insulting to call it an exercise) is to get real numbers - the basis
of science - to develop improved stoves. I challenge you to say what
you dislike about that ISO work - into which a lot of smart people have
put a lot of effort. My belief is that you know nothing about the
ISO subject you are disparaging. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Please prove me wrong by
being specific on your “positive” suggestion; just one example of
what the experts did wrong with the ISO work (what you termed
“insane.”…)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Rnn: <BR><BR>Thank you. I have been busy looking for
woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None. <BR><BR>I was as disappointed as
you are with me. I found some kitchens with - egad, ventilator
fans!! <BR><BR>What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with
foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are polluting
the outside air, the pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures
attached). <BR><BR>Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates
and concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada?
At $9 million per saved statistical life, it's a crime that our dear
Global Alliance and Global modelers of premature mortality are ignoring
the lives of say, Nantucket residents (median family income
$90,000+)? <BR><BR>****<BR>What soured me on what is marketed as
science? Well, the marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted
data. <BR><BR>But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms
emerge. Science struggles through. <BR><BR>What stinks to high
heaven, however, is the abuse of science by the advocates, the saviors
of the poor ready to market ADALYs. <BR><BR>I don't celebrate my
ignorance. I do object to volunteered blindness. <BR><BR>I have a
single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO exercise. Get out of the box
mentality, look at the cook and food, not fuel
ideologies. <BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV>Nikhil, cc list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I apologize for not
responding sooner. Been busy.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find your response
below to be most disappointing. It is clear that you have no use
for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on this
list - many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to develop
cleaner, fuel-saving stoves. I have no idea on what has soured
you on science.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Dr. Michael
Johnson, who was the key presenter in this webinar had been asked to
develop a methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution
problems - that included stoves but was for more than stoves. I
thought his work was outstanding; he answered an important question
that many of are interested in. It is clear you had/have no idea
of what either he nor WHO is trying to do.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I have not seen you
give one single positive idea from you about helping the aim of this
list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor leaves me
cold.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I ask that you stick
to the topic of this list - which does not include supporting the use
of coal or ridiculing those who are concerned about global
warming. It does not include giving advice such as your last
line:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><I>The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor
care. </I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN></SPAN>I
have read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting
to very bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or
most on this list. It is clear too me that you know nothing
about the poor yourself, nor about stoves.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="georgia, serif">Ron had asked us all
"</FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I suggest waiting until after
this </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">webinar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> to answer your questions about WHO and
stoves."</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">There was no mention of Daniel
Wilson's ES&T paper. <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">I watched much of the Webinar. It
was quite an entertainment. Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama.
Action. </FONT><BR clear=all>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>I
am not enlightened. Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to
find light - or heat? <BR><BR>Priesthood of any sect/cult
narrates platitudes around which questions can or cannot be asked
and answered. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">I
don't remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD.
<BR><BR>A stove can do many things - the glass top electric
ranges are as good as a table top. <BR><BR>And a stove can get
dirty in a myriad of ways. Cooking IS dirty; just ask anybody who
has had to clean a stove or a kitchen. <BR><BR>But we have most
Quixotic adventurers, tilting at the windmills, in search of "clean
air". Via box models. Clean kitchen or clean food - or the
quality of food - are assumed to be irrelevant to the question of
cooking and health. <BR><BR>Find your little sandbox and play.
Let someone else bother about food and
health. <BR><BR>-------------<BR><BR>WHO will save the
people? <BR><BR>Not WHO. <BR><BR>My humble (!) suggestion
to well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore advocates' deceit
and pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the pursuit of knowledge -
with all the qualifiers about assumptions and uncertainties that
researchers do emphasize but the ritual of cite-o-logy ignores. It
is unethical to be guided by unconvincing science just because it is
done by scientists. <BR><BR>What is to be done? a) Keep on
innovating for specific geographic markets, considering a variety of
fuels and appliances, focusing first and foremost on "cook food"; b)
Formulate your ideas of market size and timing; c) Understand your
customers' desires but also keep in mind that desires and needs are
pliable and change in response to factors beyond your control; can
you make just a fifth of the customers in a particular geographic
market adapt your stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody
comes to buy a second stove - even if the first one is virtually
given away - that's the proof of your design. d) Yes, emissions,
exposures, fuel consumption, time taken to cook, are all relevant to
customers, but you really don't know who weighs what more than
others, and what other things (fuel cycle management
drudgery) <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor care. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR> </SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><SPAN><photo
2.JPG></SPAN><SPAN><photo
1.JPG></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P>
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