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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There has been a lot of negativity on the list
lately which Ron has been addressing. I don't want to get caught up in
this</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>. I would prefer to contribute
stove talk to the list that suits my interests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>To this end I have attached some photos of one of
my current projects, using in a rocket stove the rapid mixing techniques which
make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove very clean burning. This project is just
getting started and so the technique is not yet developed. It will
hopefully be interesting for the members on the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=miata98@gmail.com
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com">miata98@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, 2016 10:22
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] WHO's for whom? For
what?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nikhil cc List</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>You continue
to miss the point. At this site: <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A>,
the first line reads:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WIDOWS: 2; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Times; ORPHANS: 2; FONT-SIZE: medium; font-variant-ligatures: normal"><I>This
discussion is provided to help people develop better stoves for
<U><B>cooking</B></U> with <U><B>biomass</B></U> fuels in
<U><B>developing</B></U> regions. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>The key words
are cooking, biomass, developing. Your message below addresses none of
these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph proves the same - a waste of
bandwidth.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>If you wish to
talk about <I>“fuel ideologies”</I> (your last two words)- I think it
best you find another list. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>I find it
insulting to many when you use terms like <I>“abuse of science”,
“spurious theories”, “concocted data”, "volunteered blindness” and
“saviors…market ADALYs</I>” - none with any semblance of an example.
I cannot recall any such negative writing by anyone that is so devoid of
proof.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>The purpose of
the ISO work (insulting to call it an exercise) is to get real numbers - the
basis of science - to develop improved stoves. I challenge you to say
what you dislike about that ISO work - into which a lot of smart people have
put a lot of effort. My belief is that you know nothing about the ISO
subject you are disparaging. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>Please prove
me wrong by being specific on your “positive” suggestion; just one
example of what the experts did wrong with the ISO work (what you termed
“insane.”…)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com">miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Rnn: <BR><BR>Thank you. I have been busy looking for
woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None. <BR><BR>I was as disappointed as you
are with me. I found some kitchens with - egad, ventilator
fans!! <BR><BR>What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with
foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are polluting the
outside air, the pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures
attached). <BR><BR>Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates and
concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada? At $9
million per saved statistical life, it's a crime that our dear Global
Alliance and Global modelers of premature mortality are ignoring the lives
of say, Nantucket residents (median family income
$90,000+)? <BR><BR>****<BR>What soured me on what is marketed as
science? Well, the marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted
data. <BR><BR>But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms emerge.
Science struggles through. <BR><BR>What stinks to high heaven, however,
is the abuse of science by the advocates, the saviors of the poor ready to
market ADALYs. <BR><BR>I don't celebrate my ignorance. I do object to
volunteered blindness. <BR><BR>I have a single positive suggestion --
dump the ISO exercise. Get out of the box mentality, look at the cook and
food, not fuel ideologies. <BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV>Nikhil, cc list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I apologize for not
responding sooner. Been busy.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find your response below
to be most disappointing. It is clear that you have no use for WHO,
EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on this list -
many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to develop cleaner,
fuel-saving stoves. I have no idea on what has soured you on
science.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Dr. Michael Johnson,
who was the key presenter in this webinar had been asked to develop a
methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution problems - that
included stoves but was for more than stoves. I thought his work was
outstanding; he answered an important question that many of are interested
in. It is clear you had/have no idea of what either he nor WHO is
trying to do.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I have not seen you give
one single positive idea from you about helping the aim of this
list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor leaves me
cold.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I ask that you stick to
the topic of this list - which does not include supporting the use of coal
or ridiculing those who are concerned about global warming. It does
not include giving advice such as your last line:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><I>The
rest is blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the
poor, nor
care. </I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN></SPAN>I have
read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting to very
bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or most on this
list. It is clear too me that you know nothing about the poor
yourself, nor about stoves.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="georgia, serif">Ron had asked us all
"</FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I suggest waiting until after
this </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">webinar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> to answer your questions about WHO and
stoves."</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">There was no mention of Daniel Wilson's
ES&T paper. <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">I watched much of the Webinar. It was
quite an entertainment. Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama.
Action. </FONT><BR clear=all>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>I am
not enlightened. Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to find
light - or heat? <BR><BR>Priesthood of any sect/cult narrates
platitudes around which questions can or cannot be asked and
answered. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">I don't
remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD. <BR><BR>A
stove can do many things - the glass top electric ranges are as good as
a table top. <BR><BR>And a stove can get dirty in a myriad of ways.
Cooking IS dirty; just ask anybody who has had to clean a stove or a
kitchen. <BR><BR>But we have most Quixotic adventurers, tilting at
the windmills, in search of "clean air". Via box models. Clean
kitchen or clean food - or the quality of food - are assumed to be
irrelevant to the question of cooking and health. <BR><BR>Find your
little sandbox and play. Let someone else bother about food and
health. <BR><BR>-------------<BR><BR>WHO will save the
people? <BR><BR>Not WHO. <BR><BR>My humble (!) suggestion to
well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore advocates' deceit and
pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the pursuit of knowledge - with all
the qualifiers about assumptions and uncertainties that researchers do
emphasize but the ritual of cite-o-logy ignores. It is unethical to be
guided by unconvincing science just because it is done by
scientists. <BR><BR>What is to be done? a) Keep on innovating for
specific geographic markets, considering a variety of fuels and
appliances, focusing first and foremost on "cook food"; b) Formulate
your ideas of market size and timing; c) Understand your customers'
desires but also keep in mind that desires and needs are pliable and
change in response to factors beyond your control; can you make just a
fifth of the customers in a particular geographic market adapt your
stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody comes to buy a second
stove - even if the first one is virtually given away - that's the proof
of your design. d) Yes, emissions, exposures, fuel consumption, time
taken to cook, are all relevant to customers, but you really don't know
who weighs what more than others, and what other things (fuel cycle
management drudgery) <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">The rest is blogal
noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor, nor
care. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR> </SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><SPAN
id=cid:F13158E2-EE55-490D-8D97-D1D86851C243><photo 2.JPG></SPAN><SPAN
id=cid:3D627C6C-347B-4CFB-A660-968440E9B55F><photo
1.JPG></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
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