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Kirk,<br>
<br>
Nice!!!! Very "Kirk-wellian" or "Harris-oniam". (And those are
compliments!!!).<br>
<br>
1, You might want to try having more of the "nose" (innermost part
of the secondary air shelf) to be blocked off to force even more of
the flame nearer the center. There are so many ways to modify what
you have caught as a concept. And I know that you do those
modifications so well and with good observations of the results. I
am sure that this is of GREAT interest to Aprovecho and all who have
worked so hard regarding Rocket stove technology and dissemination.<br>
<br>
2. Your drawing does not show the standard shelf and grate of the
classic Rocket stove. Please confirm it that shelf is still in the
design (I think that it probably should be.) Removing that shelf
would remove the most fundamental characteristic of Rocket
technology.<br>
<br>
3. Your drawing does not acknowledge that the air entering under
your secondary air shelf has BOTH primary and secondary combustion
functions (because some of the created pyrolytic gases are being
burned with the surplus of air that is entering. Very difficult to
gain additional control over the air flows, (and why Rocket stoves
are not gasifiers, which have gas production and gas combustion
sufficiently separate to have control over both.) How could you
change your drawing to illustrate this? <br>
<br>
Looking forward to your next report.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/22/2016 2:02 AM, kgharris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:45212F41382043FBB74CF87A3FA4B73F@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
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<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">All,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">There has been a lot of
negativity on the list lately which Ron has been addressing.
I don't want to get caught up in this</font><font face="Arial"
size="2">. I would prefer to contribute stove talk to the
list that suits my interests.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">To this end I have attached some
photos of one of my current projects, using in a rocket stove
the rapid mixing techniques which make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND
stove very clean burning. This project is just getting
started and so the technique is not yet developed. It will
hopefully be interesting for the members on the list.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk H.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="rongretlarson@comcast.net"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">Ronal W. Larson</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="miata98@gmail.com"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com">miata98@gmail.com</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, September
21, 2016 10:22 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] WHO's
for whom? For what?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nikhil cc List</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>You
continue to miss the point. At this site: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>,
the first line reads:</div>
<div><span style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WIDOWS: 2;
BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Times;
ORPHANS: 2; FONT-SIZE: medium; font-variant-ligatures:
normal"><i>This discussion is provided to help people
develop better stoves for <u><b>cooking</b></u> with <u><b>biomass</b></u>
fuels in <u><b>developing</b></u> regions. </i></span></div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>The
key words are cooking, biomass, developing. Your message
below addresses none of these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph
proves the same - a waste of bandwidth.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>If
you wish to talk about <i>“fuel ideologies”</i> (your last
two words)- I think it best you find another list. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>I
find it insulting to many when you use terms like <i>“abuse of
science”, “spurious theories”, “concocted data”,
"volunteered blindness” and “saviors…market ADALYs</i>” -
none with any semblance of an example. I cannot recall any
such negative writing by anyone that is so devoid of proof.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>The
purpose of the ISO work (insulting to call it an exercise) is
to get real numbers - the basis of science - to develop
improved stoves. I challenge you to say what you dislike
about that ISO work - into which a lot of smart people have
put a lot of effort. My belief is that you know nothing
about the ISO subject you are disparaging. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class="Apple-tab-span"></span>Please
prove me wrong by being specific on your “positive”
suggestion; just one example of what the experts did wrong
with the ISO work (what you termed “insane.”…)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Rnn: <br>
<br>
Thank you. I have been busy looking for woodstove shops
on Cape Cod. None. <br>
<br>
I was as disappointed as you are with me. I found some
kitchens with - egad, ventilator fans!! <br>
<br>
What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with
foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are
polluting the outside air, the pristine air of
Provincetown! (Pictures attached). <br>
<br>
Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates and
concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US
and Canada? At $9 million per saved statistical life,
it's a crime that our dear Global Alliance and Global
modelers of premature mortality are ignoring the lives
of say, Nantucket residents (median family income
$90,000+)? <br>
<br>
****<br>
What soured me on what is marketed as science? Well, the
marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted data. <br>
<br>
But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms emerge.
Science struggles through. <br>
<br>
What stinks to high heaven, however, is the abuse of
science by the advocates, the saviors of the poor ready
to market ADALYs. <br>
<br>
I don't celebrate my ignorance. I do object to
volunteered blindness. <br>
<br>
I have a single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO
exercise. Get out of the box mentality, look at the cook
and food, not fuel ideologies. <br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04
AM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid;
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<div>Nikhil, cc list</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span>I
apologize for not responding sooner. Been
busy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span>I
find your response below to be most
disappointing. It is clear that you have no
use for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and
essentially no-one on this list - many/most of
whom have put in many years in trying to
develop cleaner, fuel-saving stoves. I have
no idea on what has soured you on science.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span>Dr. Michael
Johnson, who was the key presenter in this
webinar had been asked to develop a
methodology to help countries solve indoor air
pollution problems - that included stoves but
was for more than stoves. I thought his work
was outstanding; he answered an important
question that many of are interested in. It
is clear you had/have no idea of what either
he nor WHO is trying to do.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span>I
have not seen you give one single positive
idea from you about helping the aim of this
list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor
leaves me cold.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span>I
ask that you stick to the topic of this list -
which does not include supporting the use of
coal or ridiculing those who are concerned
about global warming. It does not include
giving advice such as your last line:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE:
12px"><i>The rest is
blogal noise of vested
interests who know
nothing about the poor,
nor care. </i></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<span style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></span></span>I
have read nothing by you that gives you the
right to be so insulting to very bright and
highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson -
or most on this list. It is clear too me that
you know nothing about the poor yourself, nor
about stoves.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM,
Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target="_blank">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="georgia,
serif">Ron had asked us all "</font><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I suggest
waiting until after this </span><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">webinar</span><span
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> to answer
your questions about WHO and
stoves."</span>
<div><font face="georgia, serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia, serif">There
was no mention of Daniel
Wilson's ES&T paper. <br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia, serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="georgia, serif">I
watched much of the Webinar. It
was quite an entertainment.
Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama.
Action. </font><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12px"><br>
I am not enlightened.
Can anybody tell me if
s/he was able to find
light - or heat? <br>
<br>
Priesthood of any
sect/cult narrates
platitudes around
which questions can or
cannot be asked and
answered. </span></div>
<div><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12px">I
don't remember any
mention of that
four-letter word FOOD.
<br>
<br>
A stove can do many
things - the glass top
electric ranges are as
good as a table top. <br>
<br>
And a stove can get
dirty in a myriad of
ways. Cooking IS
dirty; just ask
anybody who has had to
clean a stove or a
kitchen. <br>
<br>
But we have most
Quixotic adventurers,
tilting at the
windmills, in search
of "clean air". Via
box models. Clean
kitchen or clean food
- or the quality of
food - are assumed to
be irrelevant to the
question of cooking
and health. <br>
<br>
Find your little
sandbox and play. Let
someone else bother
about food and
health. <br>
<br>
-------------<br>
<br>
WHO will save the
people? <br>
<br>
Not WHO. <br>
<br>
My humble (!)
suggestion to
well-meaning stove
designers: Avoid and
ignore advocates'
deceit and pretense of
knowledge. Don't
insult the pursuit of
knowledge - with all
the qualifiers about
assumptions and
uncertainties that
researchers do
emphasize but the
ritual of cite-o-logy
ignores. It is
unethical to be guided
by unconvincing
science just because
it is done by
scientists. <br>
<br>
What is to be done? a)
Keep on innovating for
specific geographic
markets, considering a
variety of fuels and
appliances, focusing
first and foremost on
"cook food"; b)
Formulate your ideas
of market size and
timing; c) Understand
your customers'
desires but also keep
in mind that desires
and needs are pliable
and change in response
to factors beyond your
control; can you make
just a fifth of the
customers in a
particular geographic
market adapt your
stove/fuel solution
enthusiastically? If
anybody comes to buy a
second stove - even if
the first one is
virtually given away -
that's the proof of
your design. d) Yes,
emissions, exposures,
fuel consumption, time
taken to cook, are all
relevant to customers,
but you really don't
know who weighs what
more than others, and
what other things
(fuel cycle management
drudgery) <br>
<br>
</span><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12px">The
rest is blogal noise
of vested interests
who know nothing about
the poor, nor care. </span><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
georgia,serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12px"><br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<span id="cid:F13158E2-EE55-490D-8D97-D1D86851C243"><photo
2.JPG></span><span
id="cid:3D627C6C-347B-4CFB-A660-968440E9B55F"><photo
1.JPG></span></div>
</blockquote>
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