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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bruce,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thank you for your response. I will keep the
list updated with my progress, and will be looking to see if anybody else gets
interested and does some experimenting, which would be a good
thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=bruce@affordableenergysolutions.com
href="mailto:bruce@affordableenergysolutions.com">Bruce Stahlberg</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 22, 2016 7:40
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Stove talk</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Kirk,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for sharing this information and look forward to additional test
results and developments. This looks very promising.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bruce</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Tony Vovers <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:vovers1@gmail.com"
target=_blank>vovers1@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<P dir=ltr>Dear Kirk</P>
<P dir=ltr>I am very interested to understand better your use of mixers with
rocket stoves. </P>
<P dir=ltr>I am working with Permaculture farm and a school in Bali
Indonesia on trying to get some poorly performing but beautiful looking Cob
rocket Stoves to perform better.<BR>Would you be OK to share some
information and suggestions with me, I can share with you some photo and
information on the stoves and typical fuel we have here.</P>
<P dir=ltr>I suspect the design we have was designed for both cooking and
heating which is not really suitable for our tropical environment.</P><SPAN
class=HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>
<P dir=ltr>Tony Vovers</P></FONT></SPAN>
<DIV class=HOEnZb>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 22 Sep 2016 3:04 p.m., "kgharris" <<A
href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net" target=_blank>kgharris@sonic.net</A>>
wrote:<BR type="attribution">
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There has been a lot of negativity on the
list lately which Ron has been addressing. I don't want to get
caught up in this</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>. I would prefer
to contribute stove talk to the list that suits my
interests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>To this end I have attached some photos of
one of my current projects, using in a rocket stove the rapid mixing
techniques which make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove very clean
burning. This project is just getting started and so the technique
is not yet developed. It will hopefully be
interesting for the members on the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=miata98@gmail.com
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>Discussion
of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, 2016
10:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] WHO's for
whom? For what?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nikhil cc List</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>You continue to miss the
point. At this site: <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.bioenergyli<WBR>sts.org/mailman/listinfo/<WBR>stoves_lists.bioenergylists.<WBR>org</A>,
the first line reads:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Times; FONT-SIZE: medium"><I>This
discussion is provided to help people develop better stoves for
<U><B>cooking</B></U> with <U><B>biomass</B></U> fuels in
<U><B>developing</B></U> regions. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>The key words are
cooking, biomass, developing. Your message below addresses none of
these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph proves the same - a
waste of bandwidth.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>If you wish to talk
about <I>“fuel ideologies”</I> (your last two words)- I think it
best you find another list. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find it insulting to
many when you use terms like <I>“abuse of science”, “spurious
theories”, “concocted data”, "volunteered blindness” and
“saviors…market ADALYs</I>” - none with any semblance of an
example. I cannot recall any such negative writing by anyone that
is so devoid of proof.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>The purpose of the ISO
work (insulting to call it an exercise) is to get real numbers - the
basis of science - to develop improved stoves. I challenge you to
say what you dislike about that ISO work - into which a lot of smart
people have put a lot of effort. My belief is that you know
nothing about the ISO subject you are disparaging. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Please prove me wrong by
being specific on your “positive” suggestion; just one example of
what the experts did wrong with the ISO work (what you termed
“insane.”…)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Rnn: <BR><BR>Thank you. I have been busy looking for
woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None. <BR><BR>I was as disappointed
as you are with me. I found some kitchens with - egad, ventilator
fans!! <BR><BR>What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants
with foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are
polluting the outside air, the pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures
attached). <BR><BR>Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates
and concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada?
At $9 million per saved statistical life, it's a crime that our dear
Global Alliance and Global modelers of premature mortality are
ignoring the lives of say, Nantucket residents (median family income
$90,000+)? <BR><BR>****<BR>What soured me on what is marketed as
science? Well, the marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted
data. <BR><BR>But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms
emerge. Science struggles through. <BR><BR>What stinks to high
heaven, however, is the abuse of science by the advocates, the saviors
of the poor ready to market ADALYs. <BR><BR>I don't celebrate my
ignorance. I do object to volunteered blindness. <BR><BR>I have a
single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO exercise. Get out of the
box mentality, look at the cook and food, not fuel
ideologies. <BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W.
Larson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank>rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV>Nikhil, cc list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I apologize for not
responding sooner. Been busy.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find your response
below to be most disappointing. It is clear that you have no
use for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on
this list - many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to
develop cleaner, fuel-saving stoves. I have no idea on what
has soured you on science.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Dr. Michael
Johnson, who was the key presenter in this webinar had been asked to
develop a methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution
problems - that included stoves but was for more than stoves.
I thought his work was outstanding; he answered an important
question that many of are interested in. It is clear you
had/have no idea of what either he nor WHO is trying to do.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I have not seen you
give one single positive idea from you about helping the aim of this
list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor leaves me
cold.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I ask that you stick
to the topic of this list - which does not include supporting the
use of coal or ridiculing those who are concerned about global
warming. It does not include giving advice such as your last
line:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><I>The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor
care. </I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN></SPAN>I
have read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting
to very bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or
most on this list. It is clear too me that you know nothing
about the poor yourself, nor about stoves.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target=_blank>miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face="georgia, serif">Ron had asked us all
"</FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I suggest waiting until
after this </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">webinar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> to answer your questions about WHO
and stoves."</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">There was no mention of Daniel
Wilson's ES&T paper. <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">I watched much of the Webinar. It
was quite an entertainment. Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama.
Action. </FONT><BR clear=all>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>I am not
enlightened. Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to find
light - or heat? <BR><BR>Priesthood of any sect/cult narrates
platitudes around which questions can or cannot be asked and
answered. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">I
don't remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD.
<BR><BR>A stove can do many things - the glass top electric
ranges are as good as a table top. <BR><BR>And a stove can
get dirty in a myriad of ways. Cooking IS dirty; just ask anybody
who has had to clean a stove or a kitchen. <BR><BR>But we
have most Quixotic adventurers, tilting at the windmills, in
search of "clean air". Via box models. Clean kitchen or
clean food - or the quality of food - are assumed to be irrelevant
to the question of cooking and health. <BR><BR>Find your
little sandbox and play. Let someone else bother about food and
health. <BR><BR>-------------<BR><BR>WHO will save the
people? <BR><BR>Not WHO. <BR><BR>My humble (!)
suggestion to well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore
advocates' deceit and pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the
pursuit of knowledge - with all the qualifiers about assumptions
and uncertainties that researchers do emphasize but the ritual of
cite-o-logy ignores. It is unethical to be guided by unconvincing
science just because it is done by scientists. <BR><BR>What
is to be done? a) Keep on innovating for specific geographic
markets, considering a variety of fuels and appliances, focusing
first and foremost on "cook food"; b) Formulate your ideas of
market size and timing; c) Understand your customers' desires but
also keep in mind that desires and needs are pliable and change in
response to factors beyond your control; can you make just a fifth
of the customers in a particular geographic market adapt your
stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody comes to buy a
second stove - even if the first one is virtually given away -
that's the proof of your design. d) Yes, emissions, exposures,
fuel consumption, time taken to cook, are all relevant to
customers, but you really don't know who weighs what more than
others, and what other things (fuel cycle management
drudgery) <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor care. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR> </SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><SPAN><photo
2.JPG></SPAN><SPAN><photo
1.JPG></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<P></P>
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<P align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked
by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com"
target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7797 / Virus Database:
4656/13061 - Release Date: 09/22/16</P>
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clear=all>
<DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>Bruce Stahlberg<BR>Affordable Energy Solutions, Inc.<BR>3008 41st Ave
South<BR>Minneapolis, MN 55406<BR>612.558.5959<BR><A
href="http://www.affordableenergysolutions.com"
target=_blank>www.affordableenergysolutions.com</A><BR><BR></DIV>The
difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would solve
most of the world's problems. <BR></DIV>-Mahatma Ghandi<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
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