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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Paul,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thank you for the response, suggestions and
questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>1. The mixer is shaped to fit snugly into the
stove. Air also mixes with any gas that leaks around the edges.
It is like having another slot around the edge. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The folks at Aprovecho did like the overall mixer
idea. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>2. The sketch was very basic, just to show
the mixer principle. Yes the shelf is still there. The mixer
reduces the quantity of primary air needed from under the shelf. To much
blows the flame out the mouth of the stove. The reduced primary
air is shown in the attached updated drawing with a smaller arrow.
This may end up not being a rocket stove, or being a distant variation of the
rocket stove.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>3. I added split arrows to the drawing
to show the primary and secondary air coming from the same source as you
describe. The flame is rich with wood gas, which is why the
mixer could help. Air control is another challenge, perhaps less
important if the mixing system can handle large power variations. This is
true in the Wonderwerk TLUD, the mixing system can handle both high and low
power levels and no secondary air control is needed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 22, 2016 8:14
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Stove talk - Rocket
mixing</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Kirk,<BR><BR>Nice!!!! Very "Kirk-wellian" or
"Harris-oniam". (And those are compliments!!!).<BR><BR>1,
You might want to try having more of the "nose" (innermost part of the
secondary air shelf) to be blocked off to force even more of the flame nearer
the center. There are so many ways to modify what you have caught as a
concept. And I know that you do those modifications so well and with
good observations of the results. I am sure that this is of GREAT
interest to Aprovecho and all who have worked so hard regarding Rocket stove
technology and dissemination.<BR><BR>2. Your drawing does not show the
standard shelf and grate of the classic Rocket stove. Please confirm it
that shelf is still in the design (I think that it probably should be.)
Removing that shelf would remove the most fundamental characteristic of Rocket
technology.<BR><BR>3. Your drawing does not acknowledge that the air
entering under your secondary air shelf has BOTH primary and secondary
combustion functions (because some of the created pyrolytic gases are being
burned with the surplus of air that is entering. Very difficult to gain
additional control over the air flows, (and why Rocket stoves are not
gasifiers, which have gas production and gas combustion sufficiently separate
to have control over both.) How could you change your drawing to
illustrate this? <BR><BR>Looking forward to your next report.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 9/22/2016 2:02 AM, kgharris wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:45212F41382043FBB74CF87A3FA4B73F@phyllisPC type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There has been a lot of negativity on the list
lately which Ron has been addressing. I don't want to get caught up in
this</FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial>. I would prefer to contribute
stove talk to the list that suits my interests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>To this end I have attached some photos of one
of my current projects, using in a rocket stove the rapid mixing techniques
which make the Wonderwerk TLUD-ND stove very clean burning. This
project is just getting started and so the technique is not yet
developed. It will hopefully be interesting for the
members on the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rongretlarson@comcast.net href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">Ronal W. Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=miata98@gmail.com
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">miata98@gmail.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Discussion of biomass</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 21, 2016
10:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] WHO's for whom?
For what?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nikhil cc List</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>You
continue to miss the point. At this site: <A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A>,
the first line reads:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; WIDOWS: 2; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: Times; ORPHANS: 2; FONT-SIZE: medium; font-variant-ligatures: normal"><I>This
discussion is provided to help people develop better stoves for
<U><B>cooking</B></U> with <U><B>biomass</B></U> fuels in
<U><B>developing</B></U> regions. </I></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>The key
words are cooking, biomass, developing. Your message below addresses
none of these. Repeat NONE. Your photograph proves the same -
a waste of bandwidth.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>If you
wish to talk about <I>“fuel ideologies”</I> (your last two words)- I
think it best you find another list. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>I find it
insulting to many when you use terms like <I>“abuse of science”,
“spurious theories”, “concocted data”, "volunteered blindness” and
“saviors…market ADALYs</I>” - none with any semblance of an example.
I cannot recall any such negative writing by anyone that is so
devoid of proof.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>The
purpose of the ISO work (insulting to call it an exercise) is to get real
numbers - the basis of science - to develop improved stoves. I
challenge you to say what you dislike about that ISO work - into which a
lot of smart people have put a lot of effort. My belief is that you
know nothing about the ISO subject you are disparaging. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>Please
prove me wrong by being specific on your “positive” suggestion; just
one example of what the experts did wrong with the ISO work (what you
termed “insane.”…)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:36 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Rnn: <BR><BR>Thank you. I have been busy looking for
woodstove shops on Cape Cod. None. <BR><BR>I was as disappointed as
you are with me. I found some kitchens with - egad, ventilator
fans!! <BR><BR>What has come of EPA and MASSDEP?? Restaurants with
foreign food - Portuguese, Chinese (Trump alert!) - are polluting
the outside air, the pristine air of Provincetown! (Pictures
attached). <BR><BR>Where are WHO and EPA modeling emission rates
and concentrations over the Atlantic, the east coast of US and Canada?
At $9 million per saved statistical life, it's a crime that our dear
Global Alliance and Global modelers of premature mortality are ignoring
the lives of say, Nantucket residents (median family income
$90,000+)? <BR><BR>****<BR>What soured me on what is marketed as
science? Well, the marketing. Of spurious theories and concocted
data. <BR><BR>But that is ok. Science evolves. New paradigms
emerge. Science struggles through. <BR><BR>What stinks to high
heaven, however, is the abuse of science by the advocates, the saviors
of the poor ready to market ADALYs. <BR><BR>I don't celebrate my
ignorance. I do object to volunteered blindness. <BR><BR>I have a
single positive suggestion -- dump the ISO exercise. Get out of the box
mentality, look at the cook and food, not fuel
ideologies. <BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<DIV>Nikhil, cc list</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I apologize for not
responding sooner. Been busy.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I find your response
below to be most disappointing. It is clear that you have no use
for WHO, EPA, GACC, Michael Johnson - and essentially no-one on this
list - many/most of whom have put in many years in trying to develop
cleaner, fuel-saving stoves. I have no idea on what has soured
you on science.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>Dr. Michael
Johnson, who was the key presenter in this webinar had been asked to
develop a methodology to help countries solve indoor air pollution
problems - that included stoves but was for more than stoves. I
thought his work was outstanding; he answered an important question
that many of are interested in. It is clear you had/have no idea
of what either he nor WHO is trying to do.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I have not seen you
give one single positive idea from you about helping the aim of this
list. Your satire leaves me cold. Your humor leaves me
cold.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN>I ask that you stick
to the topic of this list - which does not include supporting the use
of coal or ridiculing those who are concerned about global
warming. It does not include giving advice such as your last
line:</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><I>The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor
care. </I></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre-wrap"></SPAN></SPAN>I
have read nothing by you that gives you the right to be so insulting
to very bright and highly motivated scientists like Dr. Johnson - or
most on this list. It is clear too me that you know nothing
about the poor yourself, nor about stoves.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 14, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Traveller <<A
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">miata98@gmail.com</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT
face="georgia,
serif">Ron
had asked us all "</FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I suggest
waiting until after this </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">webinar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px"> to answer your questions about WHO and
stoves."</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">There was no mention of Daniel
Wilson's ES&T paper. <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">I watched much of the Webinar. It
was quite an entertainment. Comedy. Tragedy. Horror. Drama.
Action. </FONT><BR clear=all>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR>I
am not enlightened. Can anybody tell me if s/he was able to
find light - or heat? <BR><BR>Priesthood of any sect/cult
narrates platitudes around which questions can or cannot be asked
and answered. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">I
don't remember any mention of that four-letter word FOOD.
<BR><BR>A stove can do many things - the glass top electric
ranges are as good as a table top. <BR><BR>And a stove can get
dirty in a myriad of ways. Cooking IS dirty; just ask anybody who
has had to clean a stove or a kitchen. <BR><BR>But we have most
Quixotic adventurers, tilting at the windmills, in search of "clean
air". Via box models. Clean kitchen or clean food - or the
quality of food - are assumed to be irrelevant to the question of
cooking and health. <BR><BR>Find your little sandbox and play.
Let someone else bother about food and
health. <BR><BR>-------------<BR><BR>WHO will save the
people? <BR><BR>Not WHO. <BR><BR>My humble (!) suggestion
to well-meaning stove designers: Avoid and ignore advocates' deceit
and pretense of knowledge. Don't insult the pursuit of knowledge -
with all the qualifiers about assumptions and uncertainties that
researchers do emphasize but the ritual of cite-o-logy ignores. It
is unethical to be guided by unconvincing science just because it is
done by scientists. <BR><BR>What is to be done? a) Keep on
innovating for specific geographic markets, considering a variety of
fuels and appliances, focusing first and foremost on "cook food"; b)
Formulate your ideas of market size and timing; c) Understand your
customers' desires but also keep in mind that desires and needs are
pliable and change in response to factors beyond your control; can
you make just a fifth of the customers in a particular geographic
market adapt your stove/fuel solution enthusiastically? If anybody
comes to buy a second stove - even if the first one is virtually
given away - that's the proof of your design. d) Yes, emissions,
exposures, fuel consumption, time taken to cook, are all relevant to
customers, but you really don't know who weighs what more than
others, and what other things (fuel cycle management
drudgery) <BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px">The rest is
blogal noise of vested interests who know nothing about the poor,
nor care. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: georgia,serif; FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR>Nikhil<BR><BR> </SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><SPAN
id=cid:F13158E2-EE55-490D-8D97-D1D86851C243><photo
2.JPG></SPAN><SPAN
id=cid:3D627C6C-347B-4CFB-A660-968440E9B55F><photo
1.JPG></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
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