<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
To all,<br>
<br>
Nikhil very respectfully wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"> What are the achievements of this group
over 30 years, and what are the voluntary performance targets over
the next five years? </blockquote>
Those are TWO questions (achievements and targets) that are linked
but need to be separately addressed.<br>
<br>
Accomplishments of the Stoves Listserv:<br>
1. I (Paul Anderson) have been on the Stoves Listserv for about 15
years. During that time the TLUD technology and devices have moved
from near obscurity to mainstream recognition. I believe that the
Stoves Listserv has been fundamentally instrumental in making that
accomplishment happen. I tried to express that in my History of
TLUDs ... document that is at my website:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/TLUD-History-V2-17FEB2016.pdf">http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/TLUD-History-V2-17FEB2016.pdf</a>
That document looks back 30 years and acknowledges the "Pyroneers"
of TLUDs who happen to include many people on the Stoves Listserv
from it inception.<br>
<br>
2. Personally to me, the Stoves Listserv is my number one "topical
family" (exceeded only by my "related family"). The Stoves family
has its fair share of wierd cousins and experieced uncles (but not
many aunts). Without the Stoves Listserv, my isolation in the
center of Illinois, USA, would have caused me to stop my stove work
many years ago.<br>
<br>
I hope that others can add to this list of achievements. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/30/2016 12:52 AM, Traveller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK27e=k+ZntQpAcvqcwueqeBd_5wBBki0O1AMrgq++490jxB8w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Ron: <br>
<br>
Thank you for doing a background check on me. Will help FBI when
I apply for US citizenship. Your epithet - "climate denier" -
may make me Un-American, but I trust Hillary. <br>
<br>
You might like my piece on Nautilus website - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/policy-forum-electric-chaiwallas/">Electric
Chaiwallas</a>, where I advocated solar roofs for roadside tea
sellers. <br>
<br>
Now, I would appreciate if you could challenge a single
assertion in my Nautilus posts - on The Carbo Cult, Tale of Two
Disasters, and Connecting the Dots in an Ocean. (This was years
ago, and I am always prepared to change my views.) <br>
<br>
All of that is off-topic, but may help heal your feeling of
discord. <br>
<br>
As for my "credentials," nobody need take my Curriculum Vitae,
which is for paid consultations. When I write free, I write for
fun. I thank the moderators for indulging me; I take clowning as
a serious business, like science.<br>
<br>
It's just that the alleged science of GBD and WHO/EPA exercise
on modeling concentrations from emission rates is no science. I
may write on the evidence basis at a later time. <br>
<br>
I just sent you (privately) a couple of my sober writings on
cooking and stoves. Feel free to post them on this List.<br>
-----<br>
<br>
Paul: <br>
<br>
My work history has little to do with my "cooking life". (Only
once I cooked on work, but that was because my students in Addis
gave me a party; we ran out of food but had enough beer.) <br>
<br>
I know very little about stove design. My interest is in policy
- what is the problem and what can be done by whom how? There is
too much "global" talk, playing loose with facts. <br>
<br>
I talk to real people about cooking, about making homes, about
livelihoods. I do read peer-reviewed publications but demand a
lot of money to write one. <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-----------</div>
<div>Anil: <br>
<br>
If most - or even a half - of the readers on this list are 60+
in age, there is a serious crisis of identity and purpose.
Yes, many people I interacted with on the subject of cooking
and stoves - mostly, friends who were far more tolerant than
Ron but that doesn't necessarily make them wiser - are 55+,
but I also know many in younger age group. I don't know which
ones read this list and comment on it. <br>
<br>
I also don't know how many women - mothers and cooks, in
particular - read this list and if any are interested in the
"evidence for policy". <br>
<br>
We still don't have a good response to Xavier Brandao's posts.
What are the achievements of this group over 30 years, and
what are the voluntary performance targets over the next five
years? <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nikhil</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>><br>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:06:34 -0500<br>
> From: Paul Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: [Stoves] Oxymorons and credentials --- was
Re: Off-topic no<br>
> longer, re: News from Colorado: 'Rolling Coal"<br>
> Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:606e690c-dee3-3284-10d7-f1829c395557@ilstu.edu">606e690c-dee3-3284-10d7-f1829c395557@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252";
Format="flowed"<br>
><br>
> Crispin (and Nikhil),<br>
><br>
> 1. "Clean stoves" and "clean fuels" are not
oxymorons any more than "happy housewife" would be.<br>
><br>
> 2. You wrote:<br>
>> Unlike most of us here, he [Nikhil] has been in
the trenches in<br>
>> Washington at a high level for decades and knows
how the system is<br>
>> manipulated to generate funding by popularising
the latest fad.<br>
> I did not know of his credentials. This is probably
a good time to<br>
> generate some credibility. Easiest might be to post
a resume, but a<br>
> short description might be sufficient.<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
> Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
> Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a> <br>
>>
<div>---------</div>
<div>> Message: 6
<div>> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 14:44:44 -0600<br>
> From: "Ronal W. Larson" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
> To: Discussion of biomass <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oxymorons and credentials
--- was Re: Off-topic<br>
> no longer, re: News from Colorado: 'Rolling
Coal"<br>
> Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:C1D56CE7-8549-49F8-A5B1-102731794F57@comcast.net">C1D56CE7-8549-49F8-A5B1-102731794F57@comcast.net</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Paul and list:<br>
><br>
> I have tried to learn more about Nikhil and
found something quite informative (at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cult.pdf">http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cult.pdf</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cult.pdf">http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cult.pdf</a>>),
with a few excerpts:<br>
><br>
> ?I am speaking of the cult of anti-CO2
(Carb-o) activists. ??? Of course, there was local
biomass, which they could use amply, but that wasn?t
the object of the NoCarbo Cult. Besides, biomass
cooking practices produced smoke and other toxic
emissions, which too didn?t concern the No-Carbo Cult,
because, its proponents argued, biomass was
?renewable?. Just how the CO2 molecules absorbed by a
growing tree anywhere can be separated by their origin
? this little piggy came from coal, this little piggy
from gas, this little from making charcoal and this
one from burning charcoal ? was not clear to me or
anybody. ????.. Hence the No-Carbo Cult. What it
promises is so long-term, it has to stress that the
calamity is already here, because we are all sinners
today and are suffering because of the sins. It treats
every molecule of CO2 as a weapon of mass destruction,
but only selectively ? a very small fraction of the
CO2 that goes up in the atmosphere.?<br>
><br>
> The same climate denying stance is at these
sites: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting-the-dots-in-an-ocean/">http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting-the-dots-in-an-ocean/</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting-the-dots-in-an-ocean/">http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting-the-dots-in-an-ocean/</a>>
and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/a-tale-of-two-disasters/">http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/a-tale-of-two-disasters/</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/a-tale-of-two-disasters/">http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/a-tale-of-two-disasters/</a>><br>
><br>
> I think that background is justification also
for this list to get into the topic of Internet
trolls, where Wiki says this - where I have emphasized
some key words: ?In Internet slang <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang</a>>,
a troll (/?tro?l/ <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>,
/?tr?l/ <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>)
is a person who sows discord on the Internet <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet</a>>
by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting
inflammatory,[1] <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1</a>>extraneous
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective">https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective</a>>,
or off-topic <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic</a>>
messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup</a>>,
forum, chat room <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room</a>>,
or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking
readers into unemotional response[2] <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2</a>>
or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
discussion,[3] <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3</a>>
often for their own amusement.?<br>
><br>
> Managed lists have a way of dealing with this
behavior - fortunately. </div>
<div>><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> Message: 12<br>
> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 09:58:17 +0530<br>
> From: nari phaltan <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com">nariphaltan@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oxymorons and credentials
--- was Re: Off-topic<br>
> no longer, re: News from Colorado: 'Rolling
Coal"<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
>
<CAGeG2tD8gAR4tnQfpSFm-ZrKLy2DoyzRq8d-_GEtX=<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:u_ae1uTg@mail.gmail.com">u_ae1uTg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Ron and others,<br>
><br>
> One of the great things about discussion via
internet is that if you do not<br>
> like what somebody is saying just ignore it (in
face to face discussion<br>
> this is sometimes not possible). You can always
divert the attention of the<br>
> group by giving better answers and examples of
new clean cooking technology.<br>
><br>
> The problem starts when people start attacking
each other by calling names.<br>
> Then it diverts the attention from the main thing
- developing solutions<br>
> for cooking for rural poor.<br>
><br>
> I am sure the time you spent in digging up the
past of Nikhil would have<br>
> been better spent in looking at interesting new
technologies for char.<br>
><br>
> Nature evolves by making the other branch
redundant not by pushing it down!<br>
> I am sure most of the members on this list are
60+ years in age. We should<br>
> show some wisdom and not rancor.<br>
><br>
> Cheers.<br>
><br>
> Anil<br>
><br>
> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)<br>
> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<br>
> P.O.Box 44<br>
> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<br>
> Ph:91-2166-220945/222842<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com">e-mail:nariphaltan@gmail.com</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</a><br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nariphaltan.org">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>----------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 7<br>
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:09:55 -0400<br>
> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
> To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Oxymorons and credentials
--- was Re: Off-topic<br>
> no longer, re: News from Colorado: 'Rolling
Coal"<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:COL402-EAS83292C6009634E89F1826EB1CC0@phx.gbl"><COL402-EAS83292C6009634E89F1826EB1CC0@phx.gbl></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Dear Ron<br>
><br>
> I object you your use of the
junk-science-advocacy term ?climate denying stance?.<br>
><br>
> What the heck is a ?climate denier? when it has
clothes on? What is a ?climate denying stance??<br>
><br>
>> ?In <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang</a>>
Internet slang, a troll ( <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>
/?tro?l/, <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>
/?tr?l/) is a person who sows discord on the <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet</a>>
Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by
posting inflammatory, <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1</a>>
[1] <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective">https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective</a>>
extraneous, or <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic</a>>
off-topic messages in an online community (such as a
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup</a>>
newsgroup, forum, <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room</a>>
chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of
provoking readers into unemotional response <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2</a>>
[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic
discussion, <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3</a>>
[3] often for their own amusement.?<br>
><br>
> In that includes anyone who makes drive-by
insults about anyone else who happens to be well-read,
informed, professional and up-to-date on the subject
of the CO2 cult. You must feel so threatened by
Nikhil?s fearlessness in the face of the mighty
Berkeley and WHO that you went looking for ways to
?tear him down? based on his advocacy of common sense
and calling a spade a spade. He is from India, Ron,
and he is standing up to bullying by the incompetents.
He is also able to respond, cite by cite, why that
spade is a space and not a shovel.<br>
><br>
> Stoves are not going to be improved while you
still feel the poor are to be held responsible to
reduce their carbon dioxide emissions. They owe you
nothing. The poor of the world are specifically
exempted under the Kyoto Protocol from being held to
any CO2 emission reductions. That includes coal
combustion, which is how they stay alive.<br>
><br>
> Here is a photo of a stove that will burn dung,
wood and coal really well ? about half the fuel
consumption of the local traditional devices.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Big one on the left, small one on the right. You
can see the grate for the big one on top. They can be
made in 2-3 hours and sell for $30-50. Expected life
time is >5 years.<br>
><br>
> This is a transfer of knowledge and innovation
from Indonesia to Kyrgyzstan through a WB stove
programme of technical assistance. It involved no
boiling of water, not wonky metrics that lie about
fuel consumption, no carbon credits. Just the sharing
of simple, effective ideas that produce results all
can benefit from.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> Let?s give up the mystical stuff and get on with
making better stoves for real people.<br>
><br>
> Crispin<br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 10<br>
> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 22:30:57 -0400<br>
> From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
> To: "Stoves" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Libelous allegations by
Crispin (and a stove<br>
> added)<br>
> Message-ID:
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:COL402-EAS178F45A960815D6C9BC79C4B1CF0@phx.gbl"><COL402-EAS178F45A960815D6C9BC79C4B1CF0@phx.gbl></a><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Dear Nikhil<br>
><br>
> My definitions of what you have been up to is
clearly different from your own. I admire your
willingness to think conceptually, out loud, and to
speak it as you see it.<br>
><br>
> I have not been able to do a bang-up job of
keeping up because I have to produce outputs now and
then.<br>
><br>
> Those interested in the version 4 of the GTZ 7
series (GTZ-7.6 if you are keeping score). It is
retitled TJ4 because it was adapted to the situation
in Tajikistan, not Ulaanbaatar.<br>
<br>
> Drawings are available here <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model%204/">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stoves/Kyrgyzstan/KG%20Model%204/</a>>
. There are 54 files in all. The combustor has been
built in 4 countries so far and it seems to be fairly
stable even with some dimensional changes to
accommodate the available brick sizes. It can be
adapted by keeping the hopper and fire chamber the
same size and varying the enclosing metalwork.<br>
><br>
> It is heavy, it is very clean burning, and it
likes stone-free coal below 25mm size. It should work
with large wood pellets but I haven?t had a chance to
try it with measurements yet. The power is about 10 kW
and the efficiency (without adding extra chimney) is
about 70% at high power, more at low power, obviously
(obvious because it has very well controlled air).<br>
><br>
> +++++++++<br>
<br>
> On top the regular business: you continue to
surprise me with your ability to apply a set of skills
methodically to new tasks. Some highlights from below:<br>
<br>
>> Nor do I ever accuse anybody of manipulating
the system to generate funding. Sorry, just not me.<br>
><br>
> That was not about you at all. It is about people
finding issues to generate headlines and then ask for
money to solve. Dr Samer Abdelnour?s paper on the
technologization of social problems ? basically saying
that a stove cannot solve a problem with a social
pathology. Cecil calls it ?techno-cure?.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>> You wrote:<br>
><br>
> a) I do hold the dictum "Do not rush to ascribe
to conspiracy that which mere stupidity would suffice
to explain"; and,<br>
><br>
> b) I think everybody has a right to manipulate
the system to generate funding; another dictum I hold
dear is "The task of public budgeting is to separate
weak claims from weak claimants."<br>
<br>
><br>
> Fully agree, provided that there is no false case
(invalid memes) exploited to generate funding for a
problem that cannot be solved by the proposed
solution.<br>
<br>
>> You are also wrong that I understand the
"health modeling field" very well.<br>
><br>
> Coulda fooled me. Did I guess. Knowing enough to
know what is possible and what isn?t is a good start.
Good grief I wish our students would start with that,
instead of finishing with it. I see from the webinar
that more than half the observers asked for additional
information on how exactly the model worked (meaning
the model of exposure). Clearly the communication is
partial or people don?t understand what is being
explained.<br>
><br>
>> I did write posts on PM2.5 "relative risk"
estimation via "integrated exposure response" and the
"super-human" GBD, killing by assumptions. There are
only so many ways to do statistical inference, and
modeling without thinking is less than what it is made
out to be.<br>
><br>
> Well that is the impression I get from what is
available. I went through the minutes and models of
the WHO committee that made the presentation and it is
clear the selected model is not their best ? so why
use it, I asked.<br>
><br>
>> What I confess to having done for decades is
dealing with energy, environmental, demographic, and
economic statistics. There was a time when people did
worry about data quality and interpretation.<br>
><br>
> Many still do, and they have real money and are
expecting a return on the spend ?at a certain level of
confidence?. Seems reasonable. How can we help? By
providing answers that reflect the context.<br>
><br>
>> ?That applies to the "inventories" of solid
fuel quantities and emissions. These are not direct
measurements, but estimates based on sample surveys
(if that, sporadically and for limited regions) and
assumptions. Similarly, global air pollution "data"
are <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.who.int/phe/health_topics/outdoorair/databases/modelled-estimates/en/">http://www.who.int/phe/health_topics/outdoorair/databases/modelled-estimates/en/</a>>
model estimates. I have already written how
"premature mortality" and DALYs are model estimates.<br>
><br>
> Your further contribution hits one nail on the
head ? the claims for ?deaths caused? lifted directly
from a quote saying ?premature deaths?. It is obvious
that people do not intuitively understand the
difference so it is not wrong to point it out. There
is one heck of a lot of difference between ?7 millions
deaths caused by air pollution? and 7 million people
who died having lived a life shorter than it would
have been if they were not exposed to any air
pollution at all. The question that hangs over the
quote from the Geneva paper is, was the statement from
the WHO about ?deaths? or did the reporter interpret
?premature deaths? as actual killing of people who
were asphyxiated (or slower) by air pollution?<br>
><br>
>> There is no "knowledge" to claim that is not
subject to qualification and debate.<br>
><br>
> Agreed. There is no measurement that does not
have an uncertainty about it. To get an ?answer? from
a calculated output one has to ensure the
uncertainties is not so large after propagation that
we can?t bank on the result.<br>
><br>
> [big snip]<br>
><br>
>> The authors then derive their Table 18.18
Burden of disease from use of solid fuel, 2000 (p.
1476) and Table 18.19 - Use of solid fuel and exposure
to its smoke: estimates for 2000 and predictions for
2010 (p. 1480).<br>
><br>
> Then?<br>
><br>
>> NOT [the] WHO.<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-25-2014-who-7-million-deaths-annually-linked-to-air-pollution.html">http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-25-2014-who-7-million-deaths-annually-linked-to-air-pollution.html</a>><br>
> "GENEVA ? 25 March 2014 ? In new estimates
released today, the World Health Organization (WHO)
reports that in 2012 around 7 million people died -
one in eight of total global deaths ? as a result of
air pollution exposure. <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-25-2014-who-7-million-deaths-annually-linked-to-air-pollution.html">http://cleancookstoves.org/about/news/03-25-2014-who-7-million-deaths-annually-linked-to-air-pollution.html</a>>
"<br>
><br>
><br>
>> This is sheer hype. Or to repeat from one of
my prior posts - "Insanity, folly, deception, and
faith or plain error."<br>
><br>
>> Words matter. Without words, numbers are
dumb. In my view, a proper statement could be<br>
><br>
> "In new estimates released today, the WHO reports
that air pollution exposures were associated with
premature mortality of about 7 million in the cohort
that died in the world in 2012. Attribution of deaths
to diseases and diseases to risk factors should not be
interpreted as causality, even for statistical lives
lost. We do not have enough evidence on the exposure
intensity and duration of the 55 million or so people
who died that year, nor have we identified the
interactions among risk factors and variations across
different populations across regions, income levels,
sex, age, or mobility profiles. We do not have enough
evidence to assess whether risks due to air pollution
exposures are reversible and if so, how. Nor do we
have enough evidence that any particular intervention
would lead to a specific reduction in risk at
individual level."<br>
><br>
> So who gets the funding? The one who shouts that
7 million people were killed by air pollution or the
one who claims their lives were probably shortened
because we are pretty sure air pollution has
consequences?<br>
><br>
>> A. Forecasts of burden of disease are subject
to many assumptions and qualifications. But so are all
forecasts. The fault is with the consumer of
forecasts, not the producer. (Hey, I did my share of
forecasts.) Be a smart consumer; some of what is
served up by WHO/EPA or GACC is charred bananas.
Examine assumptions, including your own.<br>
><br>
> Noted.<br>
><br>
>> B. While Rwanda did not "ban charcoal as the
primary cooking fuel", I think it did ban use of
charcoal for industrial purposes - in particular, a
brick kiln in what was then the outskirts of Kigali.
In 2004, a colleague who had worked in Rwanda before
the genocide in 1994 returned and helped start
sensible biomass energy strategic choices. The
government reduced or eliminated the duties and taxes
on LPG - around 2008, I think - which also made a
difference in urban settings (household and
commercial).<br>
><br>
> I think it did, actually, some years ago. I will
have to check. It usually comes and goes. Like Haiti,
it is and always probably legal to make and sell and
obviously use charcoal if it was from wood grown on a
farm. It is perfectly OK to stimulate the private
sector of create a domestic resource. What you may
notice (Cecil did) is that people who have LPG don?t
use it for heating water. That is often done (Lusaka
for example) on charcoal even in wealthy households.
In Java everyone uses at least a little LPG if it is
available ? even in places where you think it is
impossible to get it there. They also (70%) use wood
to heat water even if they cook with LPG. Thus it is
not simple. In an attempt to encourage change we (CSI
Indonesia) offered incentives to anyone who could make
a dedicated water heater ? even if it only ran on
pellets ? provided the efficiency was really high ?
more like a regular gas water heaters. It was a
perfect opportunity for TLUD?s because the fuel load
can be matched to the task at hand. Not one product
was submitted in that category, so far.<br>
><br>
> C. Charcoal has long been a promising business
opportunity at a commercial scale. There is some waste
wood, and trees can be grown profitably. In many parts
of the world, charcoal is transported hundreds of
miles.<br>
><br>
> That is what is so inspiring about AD Karve?s
work on charring waste biomass to produce a high
quality fuel. He even produced the extruder and the
Sarai stove to go with it. That is a museum quality
piece of work ? to be studied.<br>
><br>
> But he is promoting charcoal consumption ? very
offensive to some. Shall we forgive him too? :)<br>
><br>
> Crispin<br>
> </div>
<div>> ------------------------------ <br>
<br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------ <br>
> ------------------------------<br>
<br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nariphaltan.org">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a><br>
><br>
> On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 9:43 PM, <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com">cec1863@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Well spoken Anil!<br>
>><br>
>> I know that Karl Popper made much of Logical
Negativism ?as the main<br>
>> dynamic by which science advances but I
disagree with him because most<br>
>> scientists are too thin skinned to benefit
from the public falsification of<br>
>> their theories and hypotheses. Scientists
under attack waste life times and<br>
>> resources protecting themselves from
criticism. The result is that the<br>
>> advance of science including even stove
science such as it is slows down to<br>
>> a crawl. In big science we still have to wait
for the influential big men<br>
>> to die off to get an entrenched paradigm to
change (see the Structure of<br>
>> Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn).<br>
>><br>
>> So I am personally and methodologically in
favor of keeping as many odd<br>
>> balls and outsiders as possible in the stove
conversation. Why not?<br>
>><br>
>> When I studied briefly under Karl Popper ?at
LSE I remember the emphasis<br>
>> he gave to the instrument makers of
telescopes and microscopes in terms of<br>
>> their impact on the advancement of science or
for the influence of<br>
>> astrology on Newton's theory of gravity, I
recall that Sir Popper viewed<br>
>> the makers of instruments for observing
nature as being more responsible<br>
>> for the advancement of science than the
makers of big theories.<br>
>><br>
>> That implies stovers perhaps need to spend
more energy devising novel ways<br>
>> of testing stove performance as cultural
artifacts, as consumer products<br>
>> for cooking and heating, as fuel burners, as
air polluters and/or air<br>
>> cleaners, as employment generators and less
time huffing and puffing about?<br>
>> how to shift big paradigms a bit to the left
or right!<br>
>><br>
>> My position is that we are wasting time
arguing over global stove<br>
>> performance standards? and tests. We are
still in the model T stage of the<br>
>> development of the small household stove
industry. A global ISO process is<br>
>> counter productive because it is very
premature. We need to bring practical<br>
>> role of thumb as well sophisticated applied
stove science and testing to<br>
>> the people who need stove services, We need
simple tried and true test<br>
>> methods that involve the end users and stove
producers. As Crispin has been<br>
>> urging we need competent stove scientists
who know how to evolve optimized<br>
>> stoves *in situ.*<br>
>><br>
>> IMO we do not need more stove, fuel and
testing protocol missionaries.<br>
>><br>
>> ?Cecil<br>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.<br>
>> *From: *nari phaltan<br>
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, September 28, 2016 12:31
AM<br>
>> *To: *Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
>> *Reply To: *Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves<br>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Stoves] Oxymorons and
credentials --- was Re: Off-topic<br>
>> no longer, re: News from Colorado: 'Rolling
Coal"<br>
>><br>
>> Ron and others,<br>
>><br>
>> One of the great things about discussion via
internet is that if you do<br>
>> not like what somebody is saying just ignore
it (in face to face discussion<br>
>> this is sometimes not possible). You can
always divert the attention of the<br>
>> group by giving better answers and examples
of new clean cooking technology.<br>
>><br>
>> The problem starts when people start
attacking each other by calling<br>
>> names. Then it diverts the attention from the
main thing - developing<br>
>> solutions for cooking for rural poor.<br>
>><br>
>> I am sure the time you spent in digging up
the past of Nikhil would have<br>
>> been better spent in looking at interesting
new technologies for char.<br>
>><br>
>> Nature evolves by making the other branch
redundant not by pushing it<br>
>> down! I am sure most of the members on this
list are 60+ years in age. We<br>
>> should show some wisdom and not rancor.<br>
>><br>
>> Cheers.<br>
>><br>
>> Anil<br>
>><br>
>> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute
(NARI)<br>
>> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<br>
>> P.O.Box 44<br>
>> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<br>
>> Ph:91-2166-220945/222842<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com">e-mail:nariphaltan@gmail.com</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nariphaltan.org">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:14 AM, Ronal W.
Larson <<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Paul and list:<br>
>>><br>
>>> I have tried to learn more about Nikhil
and found something quite<br>
>>> informative (at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cul">http://nautilus.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Carbo-Cul</a><br>
>>> t.pdf), with a few excerpts:<br>
>>><br>
>>> * ?I am speaking of the cult of anti-CO2
(Carb-o) activists.* ??? *Of<br>
>>> course, there was local biomass, which
they could use amply, but that<br>
>>> wasn?t the object of the NoCarbo Cult.
Besides, biomass cooking practices<br>
>>> produced smoke and other toxic emissions,
which too didn?t concern the<br>
>>> No-Carbo Cult, because, its proponents
argued, biomass was ?renewable?.<br>
>>> Just how the CO2 molecules absorbed by a
growing tree anywhere can be<br>
>>> separated by their origin ? this little
piggy came from coal, this little<br>
>>> piggy from gas, this little from making
charcoal and this one from burning<br>
>>> charcoal ? was not clear to me or
anybody.* *????.. **Hence the<br>
>>> No-Carbo Cult. What it promises is so
long-term, it has to stress that the<br>
>>> calamity is already here, because we are
all sinners today and are<br>
>>> suffering because of the sins. It treats
every molecule of CO2 as a weapon<br>
>>> of mass destruction, but only selectively
? a very small fraction of the<br>
>>> CO2 that goes up in the atmosphere.?*<br>
>>><br>
>>> The same climate denying stance is at
these sites:<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting">http://nautilus.org/napsnet/napsnet-policy-forum/connecting</a><br>
>>> -the-dots-in-an-ocean/ and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nautilus.org/napsn">http://nautilus.org/napsn</a><br>
>>>
et/napsnet-policy-forum/a-tale-of-two-disasters/<br>
>>><br>
>>> I think that background is justification
also for this list to get into<br>
>>> the topic of Internet trolls, where Wiki
says this - where I have<br>
>>> emphasized some key words: ?In Internet
slang<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang</a>>,
a *troll* (/?tro?l/<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>,
/?tr?l/<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English</a>>)
is a person who<br>
>>> sows discord on the Internet <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet</a>>
by<br>
>>> starting arguments or upsetting people,
by posting inflammatory,[1]<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-1</a>>*extraneous<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective">https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective</a>>,
or off-topic<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic</a>>*
messages in an online<br>
>>> community (such as a newsgroup <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroup</a>>,<br>
>>> forum, chat room <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room</a>>,
or blog)<br>
>>> with the deliberate intent of provoking
readers into unemotional response<br>
>>> [2] <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-PCMAG_def-2</a>><br>
>>> or of *otherwise disrupting norma*l
on-topic discussion,[3]<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#cite_note-IUKB_def-3</a>>
often<br>
>>> for their *own amusement.**?*<br>
>>><br>
>>> Managed lists have a way of dealing with
this behavior - fortunately.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Sep 27, 2016, at 1:06 PM, Paul
Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Crispin (and Nikhil),<br>
>>><br>
>>> 1. "Clean stoves" and "clean fuels" are
not oxymorons any more than<br>
>>> "happy housewife" would be.<br>
>>><br>
>>> 2. You wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Unlike most of us here, he [Nikhil] has
been in the trenches in<br>
>>> Washington at a high level for decades
and knows how the system is<br>
>>> manipulated to generate funding by
popularising the latest fad.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I did not know of his credentials. This
is probably a good time to<br>
>>> generate some credibility. Easiest might
be to post a resume, but a short<br>
>>> description might be sufficient.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S.
Anderson, PhD<br>
>>> Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone:
+1-309-452-7072<br>
>>> Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 9/27/2016 10:47 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Dear Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>> I think Nikhil?s complaint is that the
concepts of ?clean fuels? or<br>
>>> ?clean stoves? are oxymorons. There is no
such thing on either score.<br>
>>><br>
>>> As you are well aware, and have
demonstrated in person, if a ?clean TLUD<br>
>>> gasifier? goes wrong, there is a huge
amount of smoke coming out until it<br>
>>> is re-lit. So it is only clean under
certain circumstances and with certain<br>
>>> fuels, perhaps even only a certain *size*
of fuel.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Nikhil seems to be calling ?BS? on the
alarmist thing when that alarmist<br>
>>> thing is supported by vapourware and
numerical puffery.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Unlike most of us here, he has been in
the trenches in Washington at a<br>
>>> high level for decades and knows how the
system is manipulated to generate<br>
>>> funding by popularising the latest fad. I
guess there is some merit is<br>
>>> saying ?that is how it works? at least
these days, but it does not<br>
>>> compensate for the deliberate
misrepresentation of facts in order to scare<br>
>>> people into handing over the piggy bank.<br>
>>><br>
>>> It seems everyone but everyone in this
field is aware that only a<br>
>>> combination of operator, fuel and product
has an assessable ?emission? or<br>
>>> ?fuel? metric. So let?s not beat around
that bush. The forecasts (of which<br>
>>> there are very few) of future impact on
the public, especially public<br>
>>> health or the destruction of forests
which are the two major topics in<br>
>>> regulations and project documents, have
not been very accurate. The<br>
>>> prediction to the Ulaanbaatar government
that their air quality would<br>
>>> continue to get worse if they didn?t ?ban
the burning of raw coal<br>
>>> completely? was a major forecast of doom.
The population of the city grew<br>
>>> faster than expected, the expansion of
burning raw coal expanded, the<br>
>>> stoves were replaced with ?middling?
technical features and the air quality<br>
>>> improved more than the scenario that
required they ?ban coal completely and<br>
>>> replace everything with ?clean fuels?.?<br>
>>><br>
>>> The emergence of Rwanda as a
charcoal-sustainable country while<br>
>>> continuing not to ban charcoal as the
primary cooking fuel ? even in the<br>
>>> absence of any substantive stove
replacement programme ? is another example<br>
>>> of failed calamitous prediction. Everyone
knows we are supposed to decry<br>
>>> charcoal as a cause of blah-blah-blah.
Now we have in Laos a wide scape<br>
>>> roll out of the lighting cone (SNV) that
reduces emissions dramatically,<br>
>>> saves fuel and is cheap. No change in the
stove at all. Nor the fuel. Next<br>
>>> they can follow in the footsteps in
Rwanda and produce enough fuel on<br>
>>> private farms to feed the need.<br>
>>><br>
>>> We have not talked about Chad (I think)
and how they turned their<br>
>>> charcoal industry into a profitable,
sustainable enterprise owned by the<br>
>>> communities. That is another amazing
example of how changing the<br>
>>> administration of fuel can create wealth
and jobs and sustainable biofuel.<br>
>>> It didn?t require the change of stove or
fuel or people. Just how they<br>
>>> worked together.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There is a lot of room for self-
examination here. Nikhil is on the right<br>
>>> track with this modelling of health
impacts. He, unlike most of us,<br>
>>> understands the health modeling field
very well.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Caution is advised<br>
>>> Crispin<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Nikhil,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Your message is based on playing with
words, trying to make "Clean<br>
>>> Cookstoves" into a silly term because
there can be fuel issues. Of course<br>
>>> there are fuel issues and stove issues.
That does not make the topic silly.<br>
>>><br>
>>> If this was just silly stuff, I would not
have spent 15 years of my life<br>
>>> helping to bring TLUD stoves to the top
of the solid biomass stoves.<br>
>>><br>
>>> If you think that clean cookstoves are
silly and not important, then you<br>
>>> are writing to the wrong group of people.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S.
Anderson, PhD<br>
>>><br>
>>> Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> Skype: paultlud Phone:
+1-309-452-7072<br>
>>><br>
>>> Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 9/27/2016 9:13 AM, Traveller wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Teddy:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Thank you. That news item has great
relevance to this list.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There are no "clean car engines" per se;
their alleged cleanness or<br>
>>> "emission rates" depend on fuel quality.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Which is why "Clean Cookstoves" - global
alliances or blogal dalliances -<br>
>>> is a silly term.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There are no "clean cookstoves" per se;
only in combination with fuels,<br>
>>> and in the context of operating practices
and local environment<br>
>>> (ventilation, wind, ambient air quality,
other sources of emissions ranging<br>
>>> from food and smoking to open waste.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> The scientist collective at the ISO 2012
IWA on cookstoves (Guidelines<br>
>>> for evaluating cookstove performance<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:iwa:11:ed-1:v1:en">https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:iwa:11:ed-1:v1:en</a>>)<br>
>>><br>
>>> ""recognizes that the quality and type of
fuel used by a testing centre<br>
>>> may impact the emissions of a cookstove.
Because of that, the International<br>
>>> Workshop on Cookstoves recommends that
testing centres document the key<br>
>>> physical and operational characteristics
(e.g. fuel, moisture content, pot<br>
>>> size and shape) of the system."<br>
>>><br>
>>> Whatever little I know suggests that
temperatures and air flows determine<br>
>>> the ratio and composition of PICs and
that at relatively low temperatures<br>
>>> and irregular air flows, fuel chemistry
plays a critical role. But there's<br>
>>> nothing here about chemical composition.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Is it any wonder folks go mumbling about
"solid fuels", "dirty fuels"?<br>
>>> (More on that later.)<br>
>>><br>
>>> WHO/GBD claims on the "global dataset for
cooking fuel use" are bubbly<br>
>>> champagne - or dope - served up to
minors. (Remember the song "Goodnight,<br>
>>> farewell" in Sound of Music where Liesel
asks for her first taste of<br>
>>> champagne?)<br>
>>><br>
>>> Let me put it bluntly - WHO has
manufactured a "global emergency" based<br>
>>> on non-existent data and questionable
intelligence. (Burning Opportunity<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/204717/1/9789241565233_eng.pdf">http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/204717/1/9789241565233_eng.pdf</a>>,<br>
>>> marketing the GBD adventure of killing by
assumption as a global health<br>
>>> emergency<br>
>>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ccacoalition.org/en/news/new-who-report-household-air-pollution-driving-global-health-emergency">http://www.ccacoalition.org/en/news/new-who-report-household-air-pollution-driving-global-health-emergency</a>><br>
>>> )<br>
>>><br>
>>> Clean Cookstoves are dirty business.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I for one do not believe one needs
convincing evidence to act on reducing<br>
>>> pollution exposures of vulnerable
populations. The challenge is not<br>
>>> compiling reams and reams of dubious data
and faulty forecasts - of YLD and<br>
>>> YLL - but to please the cooks.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ron here thinks I have soured on science.
Living in Washington, I am<br>
>>> familiar with the politics of science and
the science of politics. What is<br>
>>> going on is corrupting intelligence.
There is an emergency in "global<br>
>>> health", namely, it has little to do with
individual health.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Nikhil<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> ---------<br>
>>> (India +91) 909 995 2080<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 8:16 AM,
Cookswell Jikos <<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com">cookswelljikos@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> What a story....similar to this gem is a
story in todays newspaper<br>
>>> regarding air pollution from bad fuel
rejected by the EU and dumped in the<br>
>>> African market -<br>
>>><br>
>>> ''The high-sulphur fuels also have a
knock-on effect, rapidly destroying<br>
>>> emission-reducing technologies in
vehicles, according to Rob de Jong, the<br>
>>> head of the UNEP transport programme. ?So
if you buy a vehicle that?s a<br>
>>> couple of years old and import it into
some of the African countries, the<br>
>>> technology in there ? sensors and filters
? all gets spoilt, and these<br>
>>> cars, which are potentially very clean,
are destroyed in a couple of tanks,<br>
>>> and for the next 20 years will be
belching smoke. It?s important to<br>
>>> understand the tragedy of this,? he said.
This in turn increases emissions<br>
>>> of fine particulate matter, which can
lodge deep in the lungs, causing<br>
>>> cancers and other health problems.<br>
>>> Read more at: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/20002175">http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/business/article/20002175</a><br>
>>>
48/dirty-diesel-rejected-in-europe-exported-to-africa''<br>
>>><br>
>>> I certainly hope something like this
cannot happen with LPG cooking gas<br>
>>> or that all those generators in Lagos and
Accra are not pumping smoke into<br>
>>> the kitchens with induction stoves :(<br>
>>><br>
>>> Teddy<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *Cookswell Jikos*<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke">www.cookswell.co.ke</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a><br>
>>> Mobile: +254 700 380 009<br>
>>> Mobile: +254 700 905 913<br>
>>> P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya<br>
>>> Save trees - think twice before printing.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>><br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web page<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News
and Information see our web site:<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:addressstoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">addressstoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web pagehttp://<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News
and Information see our web site:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web page<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_list">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_list</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://s.bioenergylists.org">s.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News
and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>>><br>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web page<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_list">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_list</a><br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://s.bioenergylists.org">s.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News
and Information see our web site:<br>
>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> Stoves mailing list<br>
>><br>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
use the web page<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_</a><br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org">lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br>
>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/029f6a75/attachment-0001.html">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/029f6a75/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 22<br>
> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 13:53:36 -0400<br>
> From: Traveller <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com">miata98@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: nari phaltan <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com">nariphaltan@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
> Subject: [Stoves] Bans and taxes (Re: Anil)<br>
> Message-ID:<br>
> <CAK27e==<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vVc2ki9hHs%2B4DVbdFvswVu07bdhQKyfjNBXeynmieEw@mail.gmail.com">vVc2ki9hHs+4DVbdFvswVu07bdhQKyfjNBXeynmieEw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
><br>
> Anil:<br>
><br>
> How dare you claim, without any peer-reviewed
survey, that "the poor are<br>
> not fools"??<br>
><br>
> Experts' and advocates' careers depend on
portraying the poor as ignorant<br>
> (of health risks and destruction of forests),
incompetent (not doing what<br>
> they ought to do), and sexist (girls and women
bear the burden of cooking.)<br>
><br>
> They inspect only what they expect to find. Some
pictures I picked up from<br>
> the web (attached) amply show the role of men in
the fuel cycle -<br>
> literally, cycles. Something of a counter-balance
to the poverty<br>
> pornography of women in front of smoky stoves.<br>
><br>
> I am sure there is much truth in it, just that I
am sick of mindless<br>
> regressions - a pun and a redundancy intended
here - in peer-reviewed<br>
> publications. Some people get paid to complicate
simple things.<br>
><br>
> Manufacturing data devoid of deliberation is
dumb. Have made me numb.<br>
><br>
> **<br>
><br>
> Looks like you were picking up on another thread
where banning of charcoal<br>
> was mentioned.<br>
><br>
> Banning of charcoal was attempted in Malawi and
Rwanda (industrial use) and<br>
> talked about in Zambia, Tanzania.<br>
><br>
> Banning fuel use of particular type in specific
areas is a necessary tool<br>
> in air quality management and land use planning.
It may also help in tree<br>
> resource management - I think Himachal Pradesh in
India was the pioneering<br>
> case in widespread dissemination of LPG, ban on
charcoal production, and<br>
> strict forest management controls.<br>
><br>
> I happen to place stock in spatial and
environmental planning, and am<br>
> amazed that the Johnny-come-latelys of the
WHO/EPA/BAMG exercise on<br>
> modeling emissions, concentrations and exposures
- with an explicit purpose<br>
> to misinform the ISO and the world, it seems -
pay no attention to the<br>
> ambient air quality and fuel ban options.
"Environmental damage" occurs all<br>
> along the fuel cycles; the key is modernizing the
fuel cycles (which<br>
> includes the final combustion devices such as
stoves), not mere "Clean<br>
> Cookstoves" silliness.<br>
><br>
> But I am skeptical about the mechanical
association of deforestation and<br>
> charcoal business. True in many cases, but the
processes are quite complex.<br>
> Why, the last I checked in 2012, charcoal in
Mussoorie, an area of hilly<br>
> forests, came from Kutchh, which is the most arid
part of India. Go figure.<br>
> Delhi and Washington think-tanks don't research
except by cite-o-logy.<br>
><br>
> Have a look at Social Dimensions of Climate
Change - A Discussion Draft<br>
> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.who.int/globalchange/mediacentre/events/2011/social-dimensions-of-climate-change.pdf?ua=1">http://www.who.int/globalchange/mediacentre/events/2011/social-dimensions-of-climate-change.pdf?ua=1</a>><br>
> (it was never finished). WHO was one of the
agencies involved. In<br>
> particular, see Chapter 2 - led by UN Women - and
Figure 2 - Convergence of<br>
> agendas and related benefits.<br>
><br>
> It too has an academic flavor and confuses fuels
with pollution, but it<br>
> pulls together the interconnectedness of many
processes.<br>
><br>
> I think a paradigm shift - to modernize and
"clean up" solid fuel cycles<br>
> (not just stoves), to plan for urban or air basin
air quality management<br>
> strategies - is required on the energy and
environmental policy fronts<br>
> respectively. Health policy should focus on
disease management, with<br>
> contribution of environmental and social health
perspectives to energy and<br>
> environment policy. Those two subsume the angst
of "clean cooking", women's<br>
> empowerment, climate protection (SLCP controls),
and the like; some<br>
> problems cannot be directly attacked.<br>
><br>
> What remains is the huge problem of nutrition and
education for children<br>
> and youth. We bleed our hearts over emission
rates of household stoves and<br>
> ignore possibly the most significant confounding
factors - other air<br>
> pollution and health care systems as I mentioned
above and opportunity<br>
> costs - lost lives not just in terms of
heartbeats and breaths as this GBD<br>
> chatter would have, but in terms of productivity
loss - of poor nutrition<br>
> and poor education. You had a nice idea of "rural
restaurants" - mass<br>
> cooking and serving of "good food" - but nobody
is going to take that up.<br>
> Food industry and nutrition are fairly
intractable issues the way public<br>
> administration and aid planning are organized.
(Look at Wall Street Journal<br>
> Global Food Forum <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://globalfood.wsj.com/">http://globalfood.wsj.com/</a>>
coming up. I think GACC and<br>
> GAIN, WHO and EPA, should go there and share
ideas.)<br>
><br>
> ***<br>
><br>
> That said,<br>
><br>
> i) Markets for the non-poor are not separate from
those for the poor.<br>
> Historically, oil and gas retail products were
heavily taxed in Europe and<br>
> the practice continues throughout the world. The
opposite - sharply<br>
> discounted prices - continues in some developing
oil exporting countries.<br>
> Coal, despite the nonsense put out by the IMF
"externalities" folks, is<br>
> rarely subsidized, though in some former
Communist countries the production<br>
> costs were kept low by cheap technologies.<br>
><br>
> ii) There is an option to segment the market for
the poor by region or by<br>
> changing the product (1-2 kg cylinders of LPG) or
a "minimum block" tariff<br>
> for electricity of PNG. It's tricky, and once
set, it's difficult to<br>
> change, I can tell from personal experience.
Still, these options have been<br>
> used for LPG, PNG, electricity and work very
well.<br>
><br>
> iii) Modernization of the fuel cycle for the BOP
- what I call "ecosystems<br>
> of energy poverty" - and comprehensive air
pollution control strategies<br>
> offer avenues for using bans and taxes for
dirtiest processes and corporate<br>
> polluters. Enough of this "Gold Standard"
insanity.<br>
><br>
> ****<br>
><br>
> So fossil fuels have destroyed businesses and
jobs, and are linked to<br>
> farmer suicides in Maharashtra. Let's get a grant
for research and movie<br>
> rights for a fiction on climate change!<br>
><br>
> Nikhil<br>
><br>
> [image: Inline image 1][image: Inline image
2][image: Inline image 3][image:<br>
> Inline image 4][image: Inline image 5][image:
Inline image 6]<br>
> Credits: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sevenbythree.com">sevenbythree.com</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://flickriver.com">flickriver.com</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://afkinsider.com">afkinsider.com</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://afronline.org">afronline.org</a>,<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ipsnews.net">ipsnews.net</a>, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://binghamsinzambia.blogspot.com">binghamsinzambia.blogspot.com</a>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://espa.ac.uk">espa.ac.uk</a><br>
><br>
> On Sep 28, 2016, at 12:45 AM, nari phaltan <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com">nariphaltan@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Nikhil.<br>
><br>
> Any technologies or fuels which supports life for
rural or urban poor<br>
> should not be banned or taxed. The poor are not
fools. They also like clean<br>
> air and when the affordable clean technologies
become available they will<br>
> go for it. Till then they have to survive and if
in doing so they pollute<br>
> the environment so be it. That is the law of
Darwin. Survival is the first<br>
> order of scheme!<br>
><br>
> One of the unintended benefits of LPG
availability for rural poor in<br>
> Maharashtra has been that people have stopped
cutting trees and collecting<br>
> wood. Most of the people who use to sell wood and
provide jobs to so many<br>
> for cutting it illegally in our area are closing
shops.<br>
><br>
> Cheers.<br>
><br>
> Anil<br>
><br>
> Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)<br>
> Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<br>
> P.O.Box 44<br>
> Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<br>
> Ph:91-2166-220945/222842<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com">e-mail:nariphaltan@gmail.com</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</a><br>
><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nariphaltan.org">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment.html">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment.html</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 69070 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment.png</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 109931 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0001.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0001.png</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 95649 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0002.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0002.png</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 98606 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0003.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0003.png</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 110144 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0004.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0004.png</a>><br>
> -------------- next part --------------<br>
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
> Name: image.png<br>
> Type: image/png<br>
> Size: 111343 bytes<br>
> Desc: not available<br>
> URL: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0005.png">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20160928/16d3ec2f/attachment-0005.png</a>><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Subject: Digest Footer<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use
the web page<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> ------------------------------<br>
><br>
> End of Stoves Digest, Vol 73, Issue 26<br>
> **************************************</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>