<div dir="ltr">Moderator: I changed the subject line. It's not just about stoves and home cooking. Selected posts below.<div>-------------</div><div><div><br></div><div>Dr Karve mentions water in wood charcoal in Indian markets. Could it be in part to control dust? I assume there is no risk of self-ignition with wood charcoal. </div><div><br><div>***<br><br>Ken Boak mentions bulk price of $550-650/t in Europe. I think the US bulk price to retail stores is around $750/t (hundreds of tons delivered to the store in a container of 7 kg bags; inventory and handling cost, plus 100% margin bring final customer retail to around $2/kg). Which probably implies ex-kiln bulk cost that is about the same as in Europe, adjusted for VAT and differences in employment taxes. <br><br>I have been trying to get rough idea of wood production costs around the world. Any idea at all? There must be more to "better stoves" than free biomass, no? <br><br>With saw dust and other wastes, the feedstock price is probably negative, i.e., the waste producer probably pays to haul away the waste. Is that the case? <br><div><br></div><div>****</div><div><br>Dr Karve and Teddy: I wonder if batteries are competitive with charcoal for small vehicle transport or water spraying. What's the point of charcoal gasifier? </div><div><br></div><div>****</div><div><br><div><div>Crispin: Can you please explain why EU should dictate yield to >35% on dry mass basis and what definition it uses for "the source" and for it to be "sustainable"? Is this a part of some international wood products industry agreement or yet another restrictive trade practice against developing countries - like CAP - so that EU internal suppliers of charcoal from wastes and/or EU importers of charcoal blessed by "Voluntary Carbon" experts (a cartel?) can maintain higher prices? (Considering what US charcoal demand is supposedly driving in Central America, I won't object; just curious.)<br><br>I didn't get your other post (Message 9) because it might have been an html text. </div><div><br></div><div>Nikhil</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br> <br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 11:32:28 +0530<br>
From: Anand Karve <<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SPAM: Re: Charcoal from waste - home cooking or<br>
other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CACPy7Sd2fx6v2O7=<a href="mailto:eKi_LF9sLOVN_JD3T-guzvL82MSmM7csRA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">eKi_LF9sLOVN<wbr>_JD3T-guzvL82MSmM7csRA@mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Tom,<br>
people who make charcoal in mud kilns, generally use wood as the raw<br>
material. Our kiln, made of mild steel sheets, does not cost all that much,<br>
and it can convert agricultural waste, leaf litter from avenues and<br>
forests, nut shells, and even cardboard into charcoal. The char is powdery<br>
and therefore it has to be briquetted (spending additional money) before it<br>
can be used as fuel. The wood charcoal vendors generally wet their charcoal<br>
in order to increase its weight. Owing to this, and also because of the<br>
unscientific manner in which the charcoal is produced, it produces smoke<br>
while burning. Although our briquettes are 20% costlier than the<br>
commercially available wood charcoal, our customers prefer to buy them,<br>
because our briquettes do not have any water added to them and because they<br>
burn absolutely without any smoke.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
<br>
Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (<a href="http://www.samuchit.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.samuchit.com</a>)<br>
<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br> <br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 08:50:22 +0100<br>
From: Ken Boak <<a href="mailto:ken.boak@gmail.com" target="_blank">ken.boak@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SPAM: Re: Charcoal from waste - home cooking or<br>
other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAOqQ0iYk=<a href="mailto:aFQQtZQi_2vAJ0GXm6Cat_-qQBqO-mpjQhQt_E-yw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">aFQQtZQi_2vAJ0GXm6C<wbr>at_-qQBqO-mpjQhQt_E-yw@mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Tom, Anand, & stoves list<br>
<br>
Regarding charcoal in general<br>
<br>
There appears to be a lot of activity in commercial production of a<br>
recently introduced form of charcoal briquettes, especially in the Ukraine,<br>
with aims of supplying Europe with a high quality "Pini & Kay" extruded<br>
charcoal briquette.<br>
<br>
These are now being offered from several suppliers in the UK, as a<br>
non-charcoal version under the generic name of "heat logs". They are made<br>
from high pressure extrusion of sawdust and other wood chip wastes.<br>
<br>
They are between 50 and 90mm across - often with a central hole, and<br>
between 200 and 300mm long.<br>
<br>
There are several companies creating these briquettes from sustainable or<br>
recycled wood waste and then converting them to charcoal in large kilns.<br>
<br>
The kilns are designed to recuperate the volatiles driven off by pyrolysis<br>
thus making a much cleaner, low emission charcoal production - which is<br>
often seen as a major polluter and source of de-forestation.<br>
<br>
Here's one such company in the Ukraine<br>
<br>
<a href="http://ecodgy.com/proisvodstvo.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ecodgy.com/proisvodstvo<wbr>.htm</a><br>
<br>
The charcoal product has about a 35 to 38% mass of the original dry<br>
biomass, low ash and high carbon content - approaching 90%. It sells in<br>
western Europe and US for an eye-watering $550 - $650 per tonne!<br>
<br>
Whilst this is a "high-tech" product requiring investment in an extruder<br>
($3500) and kiln, I am sure that a more appropriate solution could be<br>
applied to village scale production of charcoal briquettes from agri-waste<br>
using a low tech shredder, hand press and simple kiln.<br>
<br>
Crispin's "Holey" briquettes - made with a simple press, from a wide<br>
variety of biomass and agri-waste would possibly be a good choice for<br>
converting to charcoal.<br>
<br>
Alternatively the Karve's method of converting agri-waste to charcoal in<br>
low cost kilns and running the charcoal powder plus binding agent through a<br>
simple extruder would make a product that would run a charcoal gasifier<br>
and engine - for electrical and mechanical power production.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ken </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 10:51:49 +0300<br>
From: Cookswell Jikos <<a href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com" target="_blank">cookswelljikos@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] SPAM: Re: Charcoal from waste - home cooking or<br>
other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAA-40H+=HQM9m-R_wVwDSF-Kufoi<wbr>jZpLAzibsfVRqa+=_<a href="mailto:BgWDw@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">BgWDw@mail.<wbr>gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Tom -<br>
<br>
Have you chance ever heard of these guys -<br>
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/phapanggasifier/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/phapa<wbr>nggasifier/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMEL<wbr>INE</a><br>
<br>
They make amazing looking (and working) charcoal gas powered motorbikes,<br>
water pumps pickups etc.<br>
<br>
Also speaking of charcoal from waste - there are a few interesting projects<br>
in Kenya doing this right now, some with human waste, some with agri-waste<br>
like pineapple leaves, rose roots, macadamia nut shells etc - when I last<br>
met the pineapple briquette maker he told me they had a very big industrial<br>
market for the charcoal. Many industrial steam boilers in Kenya run on<br>
briquettes as they are much more reliable than electricity. He also said<br>
they were hoping to start selling them for co-firing clinker at the cement<br>
factories next year.<br>
<br>
Ken thanks for that link - these are such cool things all around!<br>
<br>
Teddy<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
*Cookswell Jikos*<br>
<a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a><br>
<a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJiko<wbr>s</a><br>
<a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a><br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B254%20700%20380%20009" value="+254700380009" target="_blank">+254 700 380 009</a><br>
Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B254%20700%20905%20913" value="+254700905913" target="_blank">+254 700 905 913</a><br>
P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya<br>
<br>
Save trees - think twice before printing. <br>--------------------------------<br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Message: 8</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 09:59:28 -0400</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <</span><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="font-size:12.8px">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a><span style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px"> <</span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="font-size:12.8px">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a><span style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px"> markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Message-ID: <COL402-</span><wbr style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">EAS152B45ABAA573E7F35A3803B1C7</span><wbr style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">0@phx.gbl></span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Interesting details, Ken and All</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Something to keep in mind re the developing of the EU market for these products: I understand from a Senegalese supplier of charred 'tiffa' (bullrush) logs is that there is an EU certification required before importing is allowed. The two criteria I recall are that the yield has to be >35% on a dry mass basis and the source has to be sustainable.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">To meet the 35% target requires leaving a fair % of volatiles in? the product. With greater control the target is easier to achieve while keeping the carbon content up.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">There is a very large, long term market for this type of sustainable biomass? energy carrier.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Crispin</span><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br></blockquote><div> </div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>