<div dir="ltr">Dear Dr Karve<div><br></div><div>Here was my reply - you may have missed it</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><i>Dear Dr. A.D. Karve & list</i></span><div style="font-size:12.8px"><i><br></i></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><i>"Charcoal gas" was slightly poor terminology on my part. It will be a mix of CO, H2, N2 with a little CO2 and traces of CH4.</i></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><i><br></i></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><i>There is the water gas reaction of H20 + C to CO and 2H2 and the reduction of CO2 into 2CO when it comes into contact with orange hot carbon.</i></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Furthermore the gas produced will be formed by the water gas reaction and the water shift reaction</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Water Gas - from Wikipedia</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas</a></span><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px">Water Shift Reactiion</div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">CO + H</span><sub style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">2</sub><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px">O ⇌ CO</span><sub style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">2</sub><span style="color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:14px"> + H</span><sub style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif">2</sub><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><sub style="line-height:1;font-size:11.2px;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><br></sub></div><div><sub style="line-height:1;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><font size="2">If the charcoal is fairly pure carbon, resulting from fully charred wood and thus contains only traces of volatiles or tars, then the resulting gas will also be free from these compounds. So it will be a cleaner gas from the outset.</font></sub></div><div><sub style="line-height:1;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><font size="2"><br></font></sub></div><div><sub style="line-height:1;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><font size="2">This makes it all the more attractive for using for running IC engines - as the risk of valve gear damage by tarry residues is minimal.</font></sub></div><div><sub style="line-height:1;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><font size="2"><br></font></sub></div><div><sub style="line-height:1;color:rgb(37,37,37);font-family:sans-serif"><font size="2"><br></font></sub></div><div><font color="#252525" face="sans-serif">Ken</font></div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 13 October 2016 at 04:31, Anand Karve <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:adkarve@gmail.com" target="_blank">adkarve@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Dear Stovers, <div>I had raised a query a few days ago about the nature of charcoal gas, but got no reply from the person to whom the query was addressed. I wanted to know if the charcoal gas was water gas (CO + H2) or if it was produced by uncharred organic matter left in the charcoal and thus resembled wood gas.<br></div><div>Yours</div><div>A.D.Karve</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><span class=""><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_-4115484872017319865gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">***<br>Dr. A.D. Karve<br><br>Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (<a href="http://www.samuchit.com" target="_blank">www.samuchit.com</a>)<br><br>Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br></div></div>
<br></span><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5">
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<br>
Dear Chris</div>
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Always good to hear from you. The bamboo waste things sounds highly replicable in many areas.
</div>
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I will report separately on the experiments with biochar being made at the CAU lab in Beijing, which is on an experimental farm. They have many sources for the char and are looking into how it affects plant growth. </div>
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One of the source materials is sewage which contains plenty of carbon. </div>
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Regards </div><span class="m_-4115484872017319865HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Crispin </div></font></span><div><div class="m_-4115484872017319865h5">
<br>
<div>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">"Charcoal from waste",<br>
i can report from 3 interesting projects in East Africa and Southern Africa transforming waste to charcoal:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br>
1) A project in the East of Kenya near Lake Victoria is transforming bagasse from sugarcane can into charcoal. They are using an "adam-retort" kiln for the carbonization of the bio-waste.</span> About 100kg to120kg (dry weight) of bagasse fit into the wood
chamber of about 2,5 (?)m³.</p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">About 30kg of charcoal are harvested. Efficiency is about 30% (burnt waste fuel in fire box not counted). The charcoal
is shaped into briquettes, but I have not details about it.<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><strong><span class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_email"><a href="mailto:mark.lung@eco2librium.com" target="_blank">mark.lung@eco2librium.com</a></span><a class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_url" href="http://www.eco2librum.net,," target="_blank">,</a>
<a href="http://www.eco2librium.net/" target="_blank">http://www.eco2librium.net/</a><br>
</strong></span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">2) Another interesting project is done in Kenya near Naivsha.<br>
I cite from their homepage: "In urbanizing communities we install modern container-based toilets in people's homes for free and charge a small monthly fee to service them. Then, instead of dumping the waste, we transform it into a clean burning alternative
to charcoal. Our dependable, user-focused, and vertically integrated sanitation services address the full sanitation value chain and allow families living in urbanizing communities throughout East Africa to live a modern and healthy life.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">As far as i understood the "pupe" is used as a binder to make charcoal briquettes. The charcoal comes from twigs, roots
and leaves which is a left over from nearby flower farms. The twigs and leaves are carbonized in an "adam-retort" kiln. Unfortunately i don't have any further details.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> <span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14351" style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small">Catherine Berner | Technical Lead</span><span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14353" style="font-size:small"></span><span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14354" style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small">
<a id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14356" class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_email" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">
</a><a href="mailto:catherine@sanivation.com" target="_blank">catherine@sanivation.com</a><br id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14358" clear="none">
</span></p>
<div id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14359" dir="ltr" style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">
<span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14360" style="font-family:Tahoma;font-size:small"><a id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14361" class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_url" href="http://www.sanivation.com/" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">www.sanivation.com</a> |</span></div>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px">3) In <strong>Malawi / Zimbabwe</strong> a project is using bamboo left overs for carbonization. I am not sure if the bamboo-char is used itself or it is compacted into briquettes. What's interesting is that they made essays
with an industrial steel retort and a brick built "adam-retort" kiln. The industrial steel retort has less volume and its costs including transport
<strong>300% more</strong> that the brick built kiln<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br>
</span>and they prefer the brick built kiln.</p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px">(citation. "...<span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65111" style="font-size:11.0pt">The metal retort stores approx. 330kg of bamboo (adam: dry or wet ??) and yields about 80kg – 100kg charcoal but uses almost as much firewood
as the brick retort so efficiency conversion rate is low.</span>.."</p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px">On the brick kiln i got the following information, i assume the wood chamber has a volume of about 3m³ :<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br>
</span>" ..<span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65160" style="font-size:11.0pt">It is very successful. The community group built it entirely themselves on provision of the materials. The recovery rate is
<strong>very high</strong> – approx. 800kg bamboo <span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65111" style="font-size:11.0pt">
(adam: dry or wet ??)</span> giving <strong>250kg charcoal</strong> and using around 100kg firewood or less. (adam: 800kg --> 250kg, folllows 100kg --> 31kg)</span>..".</p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><span id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65372" lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt"><a id="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65374" class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_email" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"></a><a href="mailto:louise.bleach@googlemail.com" target="_blank">louise.bleach@googlemail.com</a>, <wbr> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"><a class="m_-4115484872017319865m_-5216643080767806812cmp_parsed_url" href="http://bio-innovation.org" target="_blank">http://bio-innovation.org</a></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px">Cheers</p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px">Dr. Chris ADAM<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br>
</span><a href="http://biocoal.org" target="_blank">biocoal.org</a></p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px 5px 0px 0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Betreff: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Datum: 2016-10-04T16:43:48+0200</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Von: "Nikhil Desai" <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px">An: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Moderator: I changed the subject line. This is in response to Crispin's comment about Anand Karve's work.
<div>---------------
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>Crispin: "<span style="font-size:12.8px">That is what is so inspiring about AD Karve?s work on charring waste </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">biomass to produce a high quality fuel. He even produced the extruder and </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">the
Sarai stove to go with it. That is a museum quality piece of work - to </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">be studied... "<br>
</span><br>
I take your word for it, but I also had this suspicion a few years ago that what Anand Karve was proposing in terms of converting waste biomass for charcoal was worth more attention, not primarily as a fuel choice issue but as a waste management issue. In dry
regions such as much of India, leaf and tree waste along with other open biomass waste is a major problem in municipal waste management. Why, just driving by Gandhinagar - the capital of Gujarat state where I lived - a few months ago I saw huge piles of leaf
waste in numerous parks that have been created by the state government to make the city "green". All those leaves will be burned in the open, contributing to air pollution (not reported in peer-reviewed literature so it must not exist) that damages biota health
here and now. On the other hand, such burning will release organic aerosols that supposedly cool the atmosphere, so it is most definitely "green" for the "global environment" advocates. <br>
<span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
Open organic waste - including leaves, tree debris, food waste - is a huge headache for local governments. On the other hand, urban trees have multiple benefits including
<a href="https://www.accessscience.com/content/urban-tree-leaves-remove-fine-particulate-air-pollution/BR0116141" target="_blank">
air filtering</a>, favorable changes in ambient temperatures (thus impacting building energy demand; I did some work for Cinncinnati Gas and Electric climate options 20+ years ago), and I also happen to like urban forestry, gardening, food production (if land,
water, and air quality so permit). <br>
<br>
A new paradigm of urban/peri-urban biomass production, utilization, and waste management needs to emerge, and energy analysts have much to offer. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Unless they leave the field to WHO and EPA. <br>
<br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">The question is, do Indian customers care to advance to cleaner charcoal or convenient LPG?
<br>
<br>
As I mentioned in the previous post, the commercial potential may not lie in household cooking but in water heating (peri-urban, rural) and commercial/institutional cooking and heating (water/space). </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"> </span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">****<br>
<br>
Crispin: "But he is promoting charcoal consumption - very offensive to some. Shall </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">we forgive him too? :)"</span><br>
<div><br>
Asking forgiveness from sinners of cooked science? You must be joking, Mr. Pemberton-Pigott. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I note your emoticon, but this is no laughing matter. I think it's time to stop blaming direct use of solid fuels for presumed envionmental ills.<br>
<br>
It's the process that matters. Converting primary solid fuels into an energy service can be "dirty process" or "clean (or cleaner) process."
<br>
<br>
Extending Kirk Smith et al (AREE 2000 on India) to all processes of solid fuel transformation, not just final combustion, and counting all emissions, could well show that investments at all steps of the fuel cycle can deliver small-scale direct use of solid
fuels at a lower emission rates than the "traditional" processes (unprocessed solid fuels with relatively uncontrolled combustion and no emissions capture or ventilation). </div>
<div><br>
I will send you and Ron an e-mail about solid fuels and "dirty fuels"; you decide if it would add rancor or value to this List. I too prefer gas, electricity, and solar (thermal or soon enough, induction cooking via PV). There are markets for those. But until
the 3 billion people we bleed our hearts and research funds on get to that nirvana, reducing the PICs and the drudgery of cooking should be the prime goals of research on solid fuels use. Banning solid fuels should be limited to some areas and some users. <br>
<br>
<div>Nikhil</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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