<html><body><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000"><DIV>Kirk -- Thanks for the retort/TLUD idea. Please take a look at my Whirly Pinay clay stove and Kelpie Wilson's Whirly Girl. With the Whirly Pinay I can stop the cooking when the gas runs out and save the char from burning. I will ask my cook in the Philippines (I'm in Canada right now) to try cooking with a thoroughly dried sawdust. Regarding the new rice husk stoves, would you consider modifying one to see if it can use sawdust? I only have the capability to work with clay.</DIV>
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<DIV>Tony -- which institutional stoves have used sawdust for cooking? Why have the cooks reverted back to wood? Do you have pictures where sawdust was used as fuel? </DIV>
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<DIV>Many thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rebecca</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000; FONT-STYLE: normal" data-mce-style="color: #000; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><B>From: </B>"Tony Vovers" <vovers1@gmail.com><BR><B>To: </B>"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><BR><B>Cc: </B>"Rebecca A. Vermeer" <ravermeer@telus.net><BR><B>Sent: </B>Thursday, October 20, 2016 9:34:05 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)<BR>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Kirk - I am quite interested to find out some more about your idea of a retort with TLUD.
<DIV>In Bali here there is a bamboo factory which is burning off about 5m^3 of sawdust every 2-3 days.</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe not going to set the world on fire with the volume but a shame to see it going up in unused smoke.</DIV>
<DIV>Attempts to use the sawdust directly in institutional cookstoves have not been too successful. The cooks keep switching back to wood.</DIV>
<DIV>We were starting to look at pelletizing machines (pellet mill) but there is not a lot of interest to invest unless the value can be proven and the volume is not huge.</DIV>
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<DIV>This has been an amazingly active thread which demonstrates the maze and complexity of the real world requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately I couldn't cook on a 30m pyrolizing tower with a fluidized bed.... but it would be lovely to see one in action!</DIV>
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<DIV>Could you describe a little better how or where you would construct the retort while still cooking? I have had some contact with Prime stoves but so far not actually seen one.</DIV>
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<DIV>Many thanks </DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Tony Vovers</DIV>
<DIV>+1 281 7381000 (VOIP)<BR>+62 (813) 3888 9062 (HP)</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 5:10 AM, kgharris <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex" data-mce-style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: underline" data-mce-style="text-decoration: underline;"></SPAN>
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<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" data-mce-style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial;" size="2" face="Arial">Rebecca,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" data-mce-style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial;" size="2" face="Arial"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" data-mce-style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial;" size="2" face="Arial">This could make a good char buy back program. Saw dust could be charred in small retorts in cook stoves. The gas from the saw dust would add to the cook fire and the char bought and brought to a central briquette making facility, or used for other products (char is versatile). I don't know if the Eco Kalan is able to receive a retort, perhaps it would need a TLUD. There are two excellent TLUDs that I know of in that part of the world, the Champion and the Prime (though the Prime has a central post that might interfere). There are probably more. Another possibility is the new rice husk stoves. Saw dust is similar in texture so perhaps saw dust would work in a forced air rice hull stove with whatever adapting is needed. This would allow loose, unprocessed (except for drying) saw dust to be a fuel source. Servals recent success could be a model buy back program to look at.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" data-mce-style="font-size: small; font-family: Arial;" size="2" face="Arial">Kirk</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial" data-mce-style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial" data-mce-style="font: 10pt arial; background: #e4e4e4;"><B>From:</B> <A title=ravermeer@telus.net href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:ravermeer@telus.net">Rebecca A. Vermeer</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial" data-mce-style="font: 10pt arial;"><B>To:</B> <A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial" data-mce-style="font: 10pt arial;"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 12, 2016 8:37 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial" data-mce-style="font: 10pt arial;"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>Dear Chris, Crispin,<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Do you know of a successful project where wood sawdust is converted to charcoal and the charcoal processed into briquettes?</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rebecca Vermeer</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000; FONT-STYLE: normal" data-mce-style="font-style: normal; font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; color: #000; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;"><B>From: </B>"Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <<A href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</A>><BR><B>To: </B>"stoves <A href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/" target=_blank data-mce-href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org">lists.bioenergylists.org</A>" <<A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR><B>Sent: </B>Tuesday, October 11, 2016 4:12:52 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"><BR>Dear Chris</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Always good to hear from you. The bamboo waste things sounds highly replicable in many areas.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">I will report separately on the experiments with biochar being made at the CAU lab in Beijing, which is on an experimental farm. They have many sources for the char and are looking into how it affects plant growth. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">One of the source materials is sewage which contains plenty of carbon. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Regards </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; WIDTH: 100%; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)" data-mce-style="background-color: #ffffff; width: 100%; font-family: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color: #1f497d;">Crispin</DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;">"Charcoal from waste",<BR>i can report from 3 interesting projects in East Africa and Southern Africa transforming waste to charcoal:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"><BR>1) A project in the East of Kenya near Lake Victoria is transforming bagasse from sugarcane can into charcoal. They are using an "adam-retort" kiln for the carbonization of the bio-waste.</SPAN> About 100kg to120kg (dry weight) of bagasse fit into the wood chamber of about 2,5 (?)m³.</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;">About 30kg of charcoal are harvested. Efficiency is about 30% (burnt waste fuel in fire box not counted). The charcoal is shaped into briquettes, but I have not details about it.<BR></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"><STRONG><SPAN class=m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_email><A href="mailto:mark.lung@eco2librium.com" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:mark.lung@eco2librium.com">mark.lung@eco2librium.com</A></SPAN><A class=m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_url href="http://www.eco2librum.net,,/" target=_blank data-mce-href="http://www.eco2librum.net,,/">,</A> <A href="http://www.eco2librium.net/" target=_blank data-mce-href="http://www.eco2librium.net/">http://www.eco2librium.net/</A><BR></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;">2) Another interesting project is done in Kenya near Naivsha.<BR>I cite from their homepage: "In urbanizing communities we install modern container-based toilets in people's homes for free and charge a small monthly fee to service them. Then, instead of dumping the waste, we transform it into a clean burning alternative to charcoal. Our dependable, user-focused, and vertically integrated sanitation services address the full sanitation value chain and allow families living in urbanizing communities throughout East Africa to live a modern and healthy life.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;">As far as i understood the "pupe" is used as a binder to make charcoal briquettes. The charcoal comes from twigs, roots and leaves which is a left over from nearby flower farms. The twigs and leaves are carbonized in an "adam-retort" kiln. Unfortunately i don't have any further details.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> <SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14351 style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" data-mce-style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: small;">Catherine Berner | Technical Lead</SPAN><SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14353 style="FONT-SIZE: small" data-mce-style="font-size: small;"></SPAN><SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14354 style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" data-mce-style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: small;"> <A id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14356 class="m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_email m_-4280728987976814159mceItemAnchor mceItemAnchor" shape=rect rel=nofollow></A><A href="mailto:catherine@sanivation.com" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:catherine@sanivation.com">catherine@sanivation.com</A><BR id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14358 clear=none></SPAN></P>
<DIV id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14359 style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt" dir=ltr data-mce-style="margin-bottom: 0pt;"><SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14360 style="FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma" data-mce-style="font-family: Tahoma; font-size: small;"><A id=m_-4280728987976814159yiv4115818809yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_14361 class=m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_url href="http://www.sanivation.com/" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank data-mce-href="http://www.sanivation.com/">www.sanivation.com</A> |</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">3) In <STRONG>Malawi / Zimbabwe</STRONG> a project is using bamboo left overs for carbonization. I am not sure if the bamboo-char is used itself or it is compacted into briquettes. What's interesting is that they made essays with an industrial steel retort and a brick built "adam-retort" kiln. The industrial steel retort has less volume and its costs including transport <STRONG>300% more</STRONG> that the brick built kiln<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"><BR></SPAN>and they prefer the brick built kiln.</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">(citation. "...<SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65111 style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" data-mce-style="font-size: 11pt;">The metal retort stores approx. 330kg of bamboo (adam: dry or wet ??) and yields about 80kg – 100kg charcoal but uses almost as much firewood as the brick retort so efficiency conversion rate is low.</SPAN>.."</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">On the brick kiln i got the following information, i assume the wood chamber has a volume of about 3m³ :<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"><BR></SPAN>" ..<SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65160 style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" data-mce-style="font-size: 11pt;">It is very successful. The community group built it entirely themselves on provision of the materials. The recovery rate is <STRONG>very high</STRONG> – approx. 800kg bamboo <SPAN id=m_-4280728987976814159yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65111 style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" data-mce-style="font-size: 11pt;">(adam: dry or wet ??)</SPAN> giving <STRONG>250kg charcoal</STRONG> and using around 100kg firewood or less. (adam: 800kg --> 250kg, folllows 100kg --> 31kg)</SPAN>..".</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><SPAN lang=EN-US id=m_-4280728987976814159yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65372 style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt" data-mce-style="font-size: 11pt;"><A id=m_-4280728987976814159yui_3_16_0_1_1476168021128_65374 class="m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_email m_-4280728987976814159mceItemAnchor mceItemAnchor" shape=rect rel=nofollow></A><A href="mailto:louise.bleach@googlemail.com" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:louise.bleach@googlemail.com">louise.bleach@googlemail.com</A>, </SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><A class=m_-4280728987976814159cmp_parsed_url href="http://bio-innovation.org/" target=_blank data-mce-href="http://bio-innovation.org/">http://bio-innovation.org</A></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">Cheers</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">Dr. Chris ADAM<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; COLOR: #000000" data-mce-style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color: #000000; font-size: 10pt; text-decoration: none;"><BR></SPAN><A href="http://biocoal.org/" target=_blank data-mce-href="http://biocoal.org">biocoal.org</A></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0px 5px 0px 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;">Betreff: [Stoves] Charcoal from waste - home cooking or other markets? (Re: Crispin, Anand Karve)</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;">Datum: 2016-10-04T16:43:48+0200</P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;">Von: "Nikhil Desai" <<A href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</A>></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0px" data-mce-style="margin: 0px;">An: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank data-mce-href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>></P>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Moderator: I changed the subject line. This is in response to Crispin's comment about Anand Karve's work.
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<DIV>Crispin: "<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">That is what is so inspiring about AD Karve?s work on charring waste </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">biomass to produce a high quality fuel. He even produced the extruder and </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">the Sarai stove to go with it. That is a museum quality piece of work - to </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">be studied... "<BR></SPAN><BR>I take your word for it, but I also had this suspicion a few years ago that what Anand Karve was proposing in terms of converting waste biomass for charcoal was worth more attention, not primarily as a fuel choice issue but as a waste management issue. In dry regions such as much of India, leaf and tree waste along with other open biomass waste is a major problem in municipal waste management. Why, just driving by Gandhinagar - the capital of Gujarat state where I lived - a few months ago I saw huge piles of leaf waste in numerous parks that have been created by the state government to make the city "green". All those leaves will be burned in the open, contributing to air pollution (not reported in peer-reviewed literature so it must not exist) that damages biota health here and now. On the other hand, such burning will release organic aerosols that supposedly cool the atmosphere, so it is most definitely "green" for the "global environment" advocates. <BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"><BR>Open organic waste - including leaves, tree debris, food waste - is a huge headache for local governments. On the other hand, urban trees have multiple benefits including <A href="https://www.accessscience.com/content/urban-tree-leaves-remove-fine-particulate-air-pollution/BR0116141" target=_blank data-mce-href="https://www.accessscience.com/content/urban-tree-leaves-remove-fine-particulate-air-pollution/BR0116141">air filtering</A>, favorable changes in ambient temperatures (thus impacting building energy demand; I did some work for Cinncinnati Gas and Electric climate options 20+ years ago), and I also happen to like urban forestry, gardening, food production (if land, water, and air quality so permit). <BR></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">A new paradigm of urban/peri-urban biomass production, utilization, and waste management needs to emerge, and energy analysts have much to offer. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">Unless they leave the field to WHO and EPA. <BR></SPAN></SPAN>
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<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">The question is, do Indian customers care to advance to cleaner charcoal or convenient LPG? <BR></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">As I mentioned in the previous post, the commercial potential may not lie in household cooking but in water heating (peri-urban, rural) and commercial/institutional cooking and heating (water/space). </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">****<BR></SPAN></SPAN>
<DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">Crispin: "But he is promoting charcoal consumption - very offensive to some. Shall </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12px" data-mce-style="font-size: 12px;">we forgive him too? :)"</SPAN><BR>
<DIV><BR>Asking forgiveness from sinners of cooked science? You must be joking, Mr. Pemberton-Pigott. </DIV>
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<DIV>I note your emoticon, but this is no laughing matter. I think it's time to stop blaming direct use of solid fuels for presumed envionmental ills.<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>It's the process that matters. Converting primary solid fuels into an energy service can be "dirty process" or "clean (or cleaner) process." <BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Extending Kirk Smith et al (AREE 2000 on India) to all processes of solid fuel transformation, not just final combustion, and counting all emissions, could well show that investments at all steps of the fuel cycle can deliver small-scale direct use of solid fuels at a lower emission rates than the "traditional" processes (unprocessed solid fuels with relatively uncontrolled combustion and no emissions capture or ventilation). </DIV>
<DIV><BR>I will send you and Ron an e-mail about solid fuels and "dirty fuels"; you decide if it would add rancor or value to this List. I too prefer gas, electricity, and solar (thermal or soon enough, induction cooking via PV). There are markets for those. But until the 3 billion people we bleed our hearts and research funds on get to that nirvana, reducing the PICs and the drudgery of cooking should be the prime goals of research on solid fuels use. Banning solid fuels should be limited to some areas and some users. <BR>
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