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<DIV>All,<BR><BR>This is a good contribution to the list. It is a challenging
device to <BR>define. For me the real value of defining the type of a
stove is that it helps me to think <BR>through how the stove works.
Some things that I note are:<BR><BR>It seems that it could burn most any fuel,
saw dust, rice husks, wood chips, <BR>wood sticks and logs, pellets, coal... It
would burn all of these down to <BR>ash. A version might also be
able to burn liquid fuels.<BR><BR>The primary air in the pipe is moving
downward, and there is no primary air moving up through the fuel. The
flame receives it's air from above rather than below so it is more like an
open fire than a gasifying stove. A difference is this fire receives
air from the center instead of the sides like an open fire. There is no
pyrolysis front, the fire is just simply burning down through the fuel.
Also the primary air is not limited as in a low oxygen pyrolyzing
environment. There is a lot of primary air, enough to burn a large portion
of the gas, so actually the primary air enters together with secondary
air. There is more secondary air added later, but it does not look very
efficiently introduced. The stove probably produces lots of
particulates. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>There is no mechanical forcing of any pyrolysis front. There is
pyrolysis just as there is pyrolysis in an open fire, that is how wood
burns. But there is no migratory pyrolytic front in a low oxygen
atmosphere with the specific intent of producing wood gas to be burned
elsewhere. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A shorter cook stove design need not have a moving pipe, a short length of
pipe will do to direct the air down to the fuel. Attached is a sketch of a
stove that I used while living on Long Island, NY. A short length of pipe
is all that was needed to make this stove burn without smoke. The counter
current flow of the secondary air produced a very good mix.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>All the gasses in any natural draft stove end up comming out at the
top. Even in the type of stove called down draft, it is the up draft of
the gasses in the chimney part of the stove that powers the
gasses to move downward in the pyrolysis part of the stove. The primary
air in a down draft stove moves down until it hits the burning fuel, then the
pyrolysis gasses mix with the secondary air, and then the flame gasses
go sideways, finally to rise in the chimney section. This is
similar to what is happening in this stove. The primary air moves downward
till it hits the burning fuel, then the flame gasses move sideways to the
chimney area and begin to rise. The major difference is that the secondary
air is added with the primary air and again later in the chimney. To
me this stove more closely resembles the stove called a down draft
stove than a TLUD. I see it as a stove that uses down drafted
air to fan the fire. <BR></DIV>
<DIV>The stove keeps the surface char red hot, so two things: First it burns the
<BR>char to ash and second this is one of the techniques for turn-down, so it
may have good <BR>turn-down capability. After a while ash will build up on
the fuel surface, which might influence the power output or how long
it can burn.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is a very interesting design which has some good qualities.
<BR><BR>Kirk H.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Andrew Heggie" <<A
href="mhtml:{B8077C43-0B4F-486D-88AE-78A24F317E6B}mid://00000117/!x-usc:mailto:aj.heggie@gmail.com">aj.heggie@gmail.com</A>><BR>To:
"Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <<A
href="mhtml:{B8077C43-0B4F-486D-88AE-78A24F317E6B}mid://00000117/!x-usc:mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>Sent:
Monday, October 24, 2016 2:15 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] New kind of Sawdust
stove<BR><BR><BR>> On 24 October 2016 at 19:57, Paul Anderson <<A
href="mhtml:{B8077C43-0B4F-486D-88AE-78A24F317E6B}mid://00000117/!x-usc:mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>>
wrote:<BR>>> Crispin, Andrew, and all,<BR>>><BR>>> I am glad
that it works, and I am not totally sure what type of <BR>>>
combustion<BR>>> method it uses, except that it does not fit the
description of a TLUD <BR>>> stove,<BR>>> which is characterized by
a migrating pyrolytic front (MPF).<BR>><BR>> I think the TLUD with
pyrolysis of some of the fuel is a special case,<BR>> because if primary air
is unrestricted it also provides sufficient<BR>> oxygen to burn out any
nascent char to CO2 and CO which mix with any<BR>> pyrolysis offgas to be
further burned out in the secondary flame<BR>><BR>> AJH<BR>><BR>>
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<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rwhongser@web.de href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">Ronald
Hongsermeier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:14
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] New kind of Sawdust
stove</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>Paul,</P>
<P>I publicly apologize _here_ because you're making the big deal about it,
while Crispin is actually trying to keep a clear taxonomy, which, due to your
predilection for _geography_ is kind of like the difference between rocky or
sandy or grassy coastlines. <BR><BR>It is quite clearly a TLUD.
<BR><BR>Primary air comes down the pipe connecting the handle to the top,
which acts as a holder for the mechanical forcing of the migrating flame
front. My apology has to do with my initial understanding/confusion as to the
placement of the secondary air holes, which I thought were being fed by the
central tube, allowing airflow into the part of the migrating part below its
"lid". However, in actual fact the secondary air comes from holes in the outer
container, which also acts as a chimney with all gas flow ending at the top,
which clearly makes it an up draught. <BR></P>
<P>I agree with Crispin, (with apologies to everyone but you on this point)
that it doesn't matter where the primary air comes from and agree with you
that the migratory front is (kind of) part of the general definition, but only
for those stoves in actuality that are not robust enough in terms of fuel
variability to go beyond simple batch loading. If you put fuel in the top,
it's "TL" that's why Crispin is asking for the "pyrolytic" variable in the
taxonomy. <BR></P>
<P>regards,</P>
<P>Ronald von gesternwarfönbayern</P>
<P><BR></P><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 25.10.2016 03:01, Paul Anderson wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:a02e3707-db31-432f-7b15-b9b6b26b1e66@ilstu.edu
type="cite">Crispin, (with apologies to
everyone else.)<BR><BR>Come on Crispin, get off it. You are just
causing confusion regarding the estabilished terminology!!! It
is easy to mis-use words and descriptive acronyms, but you of all people
should know better about what TLUD signifies. Do not put
yourself down with such silly talk!!<BR><BR>Besides, in your next message
(addressed to Andrew and the Listserv), YOU wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">It looks and acts like a TLUD but has zero air
coming from below. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE>How can you imply that "zero air coming
from below" is somehow an "up draft"? And then to call it a
TLUD?<BR><BR>You are a friend and very talented, but get real. Please
stop confusing the terminology that is getting accepted and
understood. <BR><BR>There can be up draft stoves and top lit
stoves. But the acronym "TLUD" is something quite specific, and
the migratory pyrolytic front (MPF) is its very distinctive
characteristic. If MPF is not clearly evident, a stove should not be
called a TLUD.<BR><BR>Enough. I hope there is silence about this
subject. But do go ahead and talk about the new kind of Sawdust
stove.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 10/24/2016 4:23 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
cite=mid:YTOPR01MB0235019BE8D1F4BB0F588D07B1A90@YTOPR01MB0235.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
type="cite">
<META content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Paul</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">It
is definitely a TLUD but it is not a TLUD pyrolyser which is a subset of
all things top lit and updraft. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Perhaps
the TLUD builders have slipped into using the shorter form of the name.
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Couldn't
you have:</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">TLUD</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">TLUD
gasifier</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">TLUD
pyrolyser (with various levels of carbon
gasification)<SPAN>?</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">I
have not tested it yet with a meter to see how well it burns but it
definitely works. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>It
is replacing a huge square, almost cubic steel TLUD loaded with coal which
seemed to have no secondary air and no flame space. They said it worked
for a long time on a load of fuel but was 'very smoky'. It didn't even
look like a stove. I thought it was a storage bin. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Crispin, Andrew, and all,<BR><BR>I am glad that it works, and I am
not totally sure what type of combustion method it uses, except that it
does not fit the description of a TLUD stove, which is characterized by a
migrating pyrolytic front (MPF). And a TLUD does not have "primary
air supplied from above."<BR><BR>Paul<BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" moz-do-not-send="true">psanders@ilstu.edu</A>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.drtlud.com" moz-do-not-send="true">www.drtlud.com</A></PRE>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 10/24/2016 1:28 PM, Andrew Heggie
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 24 October 2016 at 09:57, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target=_blank
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-CA>
<DIV class=m_-4536210190409395105WordSection1>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white" class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white" class=MsoNormal>Summary: It is a TLUD
with primary and secondary air supplied from above. The stove is
used to heat the office of the welding shop.</P>
<P style="BACKGROUND: white"
class=MsoNormal> </P>Crispin<BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Unless I have misread your description I would say this is a Top
Lit Cross Draught.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It's similar to a device I made to burn stumps out of the ground
using a ford tractor wheel but I used an old vacuum cleaner to Blast the
air in.<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>AJH <BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
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