<div dir="ltr">Anil: <br><br>Let me throw some questions at you. I hope you reply, because then I will respond accordingly. <div><br></div><div>1. What is "smoke"? </div><div><br></div><div>2. What is the proper measure of "clean"? Who decides, why and how? Why does it matter if some stove is "clean", to whom and traded off against what other criteria to choose to purchase or use? </div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div><br><div>As for ethanol stoves, why aren't ethanol stoves "clean enough"? Because they have high 15-minute emission rates for CO? </div><div><br>It's exposures that matter, not emissions. Or emission rates. This is why the ISO IWA exercise is "fundamental folly" without a context. I do agree with the principle of testing and ranking stoves in terms of desired qualities. I just don't believe that by itself, boiling water does anything but feed the researchers. <br></div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>I hope someone else tells me what "smoke" means. There is too much of blowing rings about stoves and smoke. </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Nikhil</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>--------- </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="georgia, serif">(US +1) 202-568-5831<br><i> </i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 10:02 PM, nari phaltan <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nariphaltan@gmail.com" target="_blank">nariphaltan@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)">Nikhil,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)">I have always wondered whether smoke is the biggest culprit or the CO? Our anecdotal data from working with the rural women is that they suffer a lot from headaches. This could be a combination of stress and huge amounts of CO from chulha. We still do not know how the slow CO poisining may affect children and women. Incidentally ethanol stoves produce a huge amount of CO and so they are not as clean as they are touted to be.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)">This article might throw some light on it.<a href="http://nariphaltan.org/pranayam.pdf" target="_blank">http://nariphaltan.org/<wbr>pranayam.pdf</a> which was also published in Huffington Post.<a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.in/dr-anil-k-rajvanshi/how-pranayam-benefits-the-brain/" target="_blank">http://www.<wbr>huffingtonpost.in/dr-anil-k-<wbr>rajvanshi/how-pranayam-<wbr>benefits-the-brain/</a></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)">Cheers.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:large;color:rgb(53,28,117)">Anil</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_-2119328859181647953gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)<br>Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road<br>P.O.Box 44<br>Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India<br>Ph:91-2166-220945/222842<br><a href="mailto:e-mail%3Anariphaltan@gmail.com" target="_blank">e-mail:nariphaltan@gmail.com</a><br> <a href="mailto:nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org" target="_blank">nariphaltan@nariphaltan.org</a><br><br><a href="http://www.nariphaltan.org" target="_blank">http://www.nariphaltan.org</a></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div class="h5">On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Traveller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank">miata98@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div class="h5"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>Moderator: I changed the subject line. The post on Dr Mortimer's work was as revealing as that earlier piece by a researcher at LBNL on stove testing. </div><div>----------------------------<br>Wonderful. The Bollywood hero Big B - a spine TB survivor - opened this conference by video - <a href="http://www.biospectrumindia.com/biospecindia/news/224467/amitabh-bachchan-international-conference-lung-health" target="_blank">Amitabh Bachchan opens the International Conference on Lung Health</a> (Big Spectrum 27 October 2016). Maybe he will inaugurate Tier 4.7561 cookstove too. </div><div><br></div><div>Seriously, this study makes me question the usefulness of the term "clean cookstoves" and the abuse of the concept of "risk factors" for "premature mortality". </div><div><br></div><div>1. The press release says, "The study found that while the cookstoves were well liked, required less fuel and were quicker to cook over, there was no effect on the risk of pneumonia."<br><br>** Should we be thinking of different attributes, desired by the user, than unit fuel consumption or so-called "energy efficiency", and "clean" (howsoever that is measured)? If the user wishes for something that is "quicker to cook over", and "clean" does not necessarily imply reduction in the incidence of a major disease - here, under-5 pneumonia - what is that stove designers pursue? </div><div><br></div><div>Put bluntly, do we ignore burn and fire risks in order to save trees? "Burn the village in order to save it"?? </div><div><br></div><div>"Dr Mortimer will demonstrate the very real dangers of cooking with an open fire as miniaturised replica housing will be set alight."<br><br>Do we need a respiratory consultant to show us the light? By fire? <br><br>Why not junk the term "improved stove" or "efficient stove" or "advanced biomass stove" and think of something that the user wants and increases usability? Or, to repeat my mantra of "contextual design and promotion"? <br><br>After all, "safe", "convenient", "usable" are context-specific terms. <br><br>Are we in the business of saving children from burns or ... (I better keep mum like a child should). ** </div><br>2. Dr Mortimer is quoted, "Household air pollution kills more than 4 million people worldwide including half a million children who die from pneumonia."<br><br>** This is as misleading as the nonsense in WHO's Burning Opportunity about household cooking being a global health emergency. Doctors should know better. Attribution is not causality. HAP DOES NOT KILL DIRECTLY. All one can say is that for cohorts already dead, household air pollution is implicated as one of the risk factors in allocating premature mortality due to specific diseases. The exact numbers are cooked up, ranging from fine pies to burnt bread. Death statistics are imprecise. Allocation of each death to a single cause, and then allocating that cause to different risk factors, is statistical jiggerypokery plain and simple. Read my posts on EPA and Burnett et al. (2014) and the reference I posted earlier today to Naeher et al. 2007. Take science seriously, please. </div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">Abuse of science abounds. See <a href="https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/Global-Warming-Childrens-Health.aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local+token" target="_blank">American Academy of Pediatrics Links Global Warming to the Health of Children</a> (26 October 2015) and <a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/992" target="_blank">Global Climate Change and Children’s Health</a> (AAP, November 2015) plus the references cited therein - Zhang et al. 2007 <a href="http://search.proquest.com/openview/237ae8d4bf9a2d8938cc8f8ce39efc3a/1?pq-origsite=gscholar" target="_blank">Climate Change and Disability-Adjusted Life Years</a> or even at WHO webpage <a href="http://www.who.int/globalchange/summary/en/index6.html" target="_blank">Climate change and human health - risks and responses. Summary</a> (seems to have been last revised in 2003) and the reference there "<span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">McMichael, A.J. et al. Climate Change. In: Comparative quantification of Health Risks", which I reviewed four years ago and (proud to say) trashed. </span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">The pathology of cite-o-logy passes as "science" these days. With all due respect to all these proud researchers, I ask that they - and anybody else who is interested - only go to read IPCC Working Group II report on health and even IHME report on Global Burden of Disease from 2010 on. Serious climate science or public health science has gone away from identifying "climate change" - leave alone "anthropogenic climate change" - as a measurable "risk factor", leave alone "cause" of mortality among children. (Dr Karve's earlier post today is instructive.) </span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Science is politics. But there is political science of greater virtue - rooted in philosophy. </span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Beware of academic pediatricians. ** </span></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">3. "Such a package will need to address issues including the burning of rubbish—a common source of smoke exposure in our study—and tobacco smoking which is an increasing problem even in the world's poorest and most vulnerable populations".<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">** Precisely. Now let's have ISO IWA flamboyant fliers and fretters for a fee do some testing of rubbish combustion. Sujoy was perceptive - Kolkata slum-dwellers burning plastic. I have discussed plastics and rubbish burning with folks who do meteorological modeling and burden of disease studies. Suffice it to say EPA and WHO don't care to know anything relevant and useful. ** </div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2016 18:39:52 -0400<br>
From: Lloyd Helferty <<a href="mailto:lhelferty@sympatico.ca" target="_blank">lhelferty@sympatico.ca</a>><br>
To: Entire Group <<a href="mailto:biocharstoves-95wgs@wiggiomail.com" target="_blank">biocharstoves-95wgs@wiggiomai<wbr>l.com</a>><br>
Cc: Jay Anand <<a href="mailto:jayrash@gmail.com" target="_blank">jayrash@gmail.com</a>>, "Dr. A.K.Sherief"<br>
<<a href="mailto:aksherief@gmail.com" target="_blank">aksherief@gmail.com</a>>, Divine Ntiokam <<a href="mailto:ntiokam2@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntiokam2@gmail.com</a>>, Discussion<br>
of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] [biochar-stoves] Biochar Proposal<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:72f7d3f1-0b5d-5ee1-3f0c-d5a2be6dcc1d@sympatico.ca" target="_blank">72f7d3f1-0b5d-5ee1-3f0c-d5a2b<wbr>e6dcc1d@sympatico.ca</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br>
<br>
Thanks, Derick...<br>
<br>
This is Jay's proposal, however I did get a positive response from the<br>
Director for the "Center for e - Learning" at the *Kerala Agricultural<br>
University* (India), Dr. A.K. Sherief (CC'd), so it may be possible to<br>
do something. [?]<br>
<br>
Note: Dr. Sherief had been looking to collaborate with Universities<br>
outside of India in *Tropical agriculture studies*.<br>
<br>
P.S. Members of the [Biochar Stoves] and the [Stoves] Lists (CC'd)<br>
might, however, be interested in the results of this new study as well:<br>
<br>
<a href="http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-10-cookstoves-reduction-child.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://medicalxpress.com/news/<wbr>2016-10-cookstoves-reduction-c<wbr>hild.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
October 26, 2016<br>
<br>
<br>
Clean cookstoves lead to 40% reduction in child burns<br>
<br>
Initial results from the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine<br>
(LSTM)-led Cooking and Pneumonia Study (CAPS) in Malawi indicate that<br>
cooking with cleaner burning biomass-fuelled cookstoves reduced the risk<br>
of burns in children under the age of five by over 40% compared to<br>
traditional open fire cooking.<br>
<br>
The two year study was the largest of its kind anywhere in the world,<br>
with more than 10,000 children enrolled across randomised villages in<br>
Chikhwawa and Chilumba in Malawi. Half of the families involved were<br>
given two cleaner burning cookstoves to see if the new stoves, which can<br>
reduce emissions by up to 90%, would stop the children getting<br>
pneumonia, a major cause of death in this group. The study found that<br>
while the cookstoves were well liked, required less fuel and were<br>
quicker to cook over, there was no effect on the risk of pneumonia.<br>
<br>
... The results of our study suggest that by themselves, cleaner<br>
burning biomass-fuelled cookstoves are not sufficient to reduce the risk<br>
of pneumonia in the under 5s. They do, however, appear to be<br>
*substantially safer* by _reducing the risk of burns in young children_.<br>
<br>
*Provided by:*Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine<br>
<<a href="http://medicalxpress.com/partners/liverpool-school-of-tropical-medicine/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://medicalxpress.com/part<wbr>ners/liverpool-school-of-tropi<wbr>cal-medicine/</a>><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist<br>
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)<br>
<a href="http://www.biochar-consulting.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.biochar-consulting.ca</a><br>
System Leader and Sector Expert for the "Climate Smart" Platform<br>
& Project Development Director, Energime University<br>
<a href="http://energimeuniversity.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://energimeuniversity.org<wbr>/</a><br>
A member of The Energime Family of Companies<br>
"Education, training, knowledge and empowerment for responsible environmental management and resource sustainability."<br>
Not-for-profit Tax Exempt Status: 501(3C) DLN 17053330310044<br>
<a href="mailto:lloydhelferty@energime.com" target="_blank">lloydhelferty@energime.com</a><br>
48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada<br>
<a href="tel:905-707-8754" value="+19057078754" target="_blank">905-707-8754</a><br>
CELL: <a href="tel:647-886-8754" value="+16478868754" target="_blank">647-886-8754</a><br>
Skype: lloyd.helferty<br>
--<br>
Earth Stewardship consultant, Passive Remediation Systems Ltd. (PRSI)<br>
<a href="http://www.prsi.ca/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.prsi.ca/</a><br>
--<br>
Promotions Manager, Climate Smart Agriculture Youth Network (CSAYN)<br>
* LEAVE NO ONE BEHIND *<br>
<a href="http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://csayouthnetwork.wordpr<wbr>ess.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.fao.org/climate-sm<wbr>art-agriculture</a><br>
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=6756248" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/grp/<wbr>home?gid=6756248</a><br>
--<br>
Founder, "Future Farming" group<br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Future-Farming-4815612" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/group<wbr>s/Future-Farming-4815612</a><br>
--<br>
Co-manager, Sustainable Agriculture Group<br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/group<wbr>s/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866<wbr>458</a><br>
--<br>
Steering Committee coordinator, Canadian Biochar Initiative (CBI)<br>
<a href="http://www.biochar.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.biochar.ca</a><br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/group<wbr>s?gid=1404717</a><br>
--<br>
Chair, Community Sustainability (CoSWoG), A working group of Science for Peace<br>
<a href="https://www.linkedin.com/groups/8413199" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/grou<wbr>ps/8413199</a><br>
<a href="https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/coswog" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://groups.google.com/for<wbr>um/#!forum/coswog</a><br>
--<br>
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario<br>
<a href="http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/grou<wbr>p/biochar-ontario</a><br>
<a href="http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.meetup.com/biochar<wbr>ontario</a><br>
<a href="http://www.biocharontario.ca" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.biocharontario.ca</a><br>
--<br>
Manager, Biochar Offsets Group:<br>
<a href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.linkedin.com/group<wbr>s?home=&gid=2446475</a><br>
--<br>
Advisory Committee Member, International Biochar Initiative (IBI)<br>
<a href="http://www.biochar-international.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.biochar-international.org</a><br>
<br>
"Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out."<br>
-John Wooden<br>
<br>
On 2016-10-27 12:37 AM, derick calderon wrote:<br>
><br>
> Lloyd I have been working on a nice small Project but I still haven?t<br>
> got it ready. I estimate about 4 months so I cannot assist you before<br>
> the 10th.<br>
><br>
> Best Wishes<br>
><br>
> Derick<br>
><br>
> Enviado desde Correo <<a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://go.microsoft.com/fwli<wbr>nk/?LinkId=550986</a>><br>
> para Windows 10<br>
><br>
> *De: *Lloyd Helferty <mailto:<a href="mailto:biocharstoves-95wgs@wiggiomail.com" target="_blank">biocharstoves-95wgs@wi<wbr>ggiomail.com</a>><br>
> *Enviado: *mi?rcoles, 26 de octubre de 2016 08:12 p. m.<br>
> *Para: *biochar-stoves <mailto:<a href="mailto:biocharstoves-95wgs@wiggiomail.com" target="_blank">biocharstoves-95wgs@wi<wbr>ggiomail.com</a>><br>
> *Asunto: *[biochar-stoves] Biochar Proposal<br>
><br>
> Jay,<br>
><br>
> The deadline is 10 November 2016. Is that really enough time to put<br>
> together a full proposal? What are you suggesting? Where?<br>
><br>
> CC: biochar-stoves group<br>
><br>
> Regards,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Lloyd Helferty<br>
><br>
> On 2016-10-25 6:41 AM, jay Anand wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Dear Lloyd and Divine,<br>
><br>
> Herewith I have shared the weblink specifically for biochar....<br>
><br>
> *<a href="http://www.esrc.ac.uk/funding/funding-opportunities/esrc-dfid-development-frontiers-research-fund-2016-17/http://www.esrc.ac.uk/funding/funding-opportunities/greenhouse-gas-removal-from-the-atmosphere/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.esrc.ac.uk/fundin<wbr>g/funding-opportunities/esrc-d<wbr>fid-development-frontiers-rese<wbr>arch-fund-2016-17/http://www.<wbr>esrc.ac.uk/funding/funding-<wbr>opportunities/greenhouse-gas-<wbr>removal-from-the-atmosphere/</a><br>
> - Biochar call, deadline is 10 November 2016.*<br>
><br>
> Can we participate together? Had already written to you on<br>
> Linkedin account.<br>
><br>
> Look forward to get your opinion on same, many thanks!<br>
><br>
><br>
<snip> <br>
<br>
End of Stoves Digest, Vol 74, Issue 26<br>
******************************<wbr>********<br>
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