<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Paul,<div class="">This more detailed analysis may be useful when fine tuning or research for a specific stove and its fuel. Tweet this and that and see if a more combustable gas is released for a longer period of time or something. Thats work for a specific stove because those ’tars’ are developed in the stove based on its design (cold spots or faster air flow etc.). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">One group of fuels (based on my suggested table) will produce all sorts of different volatiles when tested in different stoves. But they all start with using the same fuel. So all this is before testing and has nothing to do with the stoves. Like testing road surface. Some cars designed for bumpy roads and some do very poorly on bumpy roads. But they all are tested on the same surface. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 12, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Paul Medwell <<a href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au" class="">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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Hi Frank,<br class="">
<br class="">
Personally, I'd like a little more fidelity than a TGA and
ultimate/proximate analysis (but without necessarily going too
detailed). I think some interesting models of a TLUD could be
developed with a bit better understanding of the incoming flow
composition to the combustion zone. The gasification process is not
my area of expertise: I'd need to speak with my colleagues about
what they can measure, beyond the "normal" stuff. Because a TLUD is
more more uncontrolled than an industrial gasifier, I just don't
know what sort of starting range of species we expect to see.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2016 3:26 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:FDA33AE3-232E-40E0-B4AA-A258B45C6646@cruzio.com" type="cite" class="">
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charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div class="">Stoves,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All we really need is to characterize the fuel. The
moisture is an easy one. Ash is an easy one. Particle size and
shape is an easy two. The organic fraction is what we need to
work on. I’m thinking we need to develop a Table of the
flammable volatiles being released from the Standard Combustion
Chamber (SCC) using a specific biomass at different temperatures
when operated to simulate for a specific stove type.
Flammability measured per the O2 feed into that heated tube
(mentioned before) and measuring temperature increase or CO2
exiting. </div>
<div class="">So we have a specific biomass (or a representative
biomass) and heat in the combustion chamber using controlled
heating coils and controlled air flow and measure the
flammability of the gasses leaving. Perhaps end up with a table
like this:</div>
<div class="">Moisture %</div>
<div class="">Size distribution range and uniformity coefficient</div>
<div class="">Size shape </div>
<div class="">Ash %</div>
<div class="">Total volatile matter % dw</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 450 deg. C</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 550 deg. C</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 650 deg. C</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Once we start testing and with suggestions from
others I am sure we will change the above as we learn more as
what tests are such they are shown to effect the combustion
process. Any specific biomass will have their own reading from
the above tests. When testing stoves the above results of the
fuel used is reported along with the results. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Readings of a specific nature like measuring the
chemicals released that change all the time means nothing. It is
only the flammability of the released gases thats important.
And, perhaps, the pattern of this flammability as temperatures
in the combustion chamber or air flow change. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Each different design of a stove tested using a
single fuel (single mapping of flammability and characteristics)
will result in different degrees of success based on cooking. So
it is the job of the stove designer to optimize success using a
fuel he/she specifics based on the above tests. The fuels stay
the same and the stoves modified to work with a fuel. That stove
can be marketed in places where that fuel is available. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I don’t see this being that hard. A local fuel that
is close to the established mapping that works best for Pauls
TLUD (for example) can be modified to fit using equipment sent
to them to do the job. Dry, chip, split or clean - whatever is
needed. Low temperature may just be interested in temperatures
to 550c while Rockets need the mapping up to higher
temperatures. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So no expensive or special equipment needed for
testing. Only a lot of research using a Standard Chamber and
operated to simulate a stove type. Someone needs to design and
build the combustion chamber. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 12, 2016, at 7:58 PM, Paul Medwell <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au" class=""></a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Hi Tami,<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks for the detailed response.<br class="">
<br class="">
The answer to your question is "the more we can have the
better". Realistically, it would be too easy to end up
with too much information and just become overwhelmed.
Even if it were possible to obtain full speciation
measurements of the pyrolysis/gasification products, it
probably isn't practicable to use. For example, in the
case of gaseous turbulent combustion there is already too
much of a compromise needed for methane combustion:
detailed kinetic mechanisms are often too large for
CFD...obviously the problem becomes much worse for other
fuels. There is a huge amount of work in the area of
kinetic mechanism reductions (mainly for engine fuels),
but detailed kinetics of tars seems out of the question
any time soon. <br class="">
<br class="">
In the first instance, it would be interesting to see a
plot of the mass spectrum of the pyrolysis/gasification
products in a TLUD (before the secondary air inlets) for
different operating conditions. It would also be nice to
know the global C/H ratio. We are in the process of
getting a new GC/MS, but only to 300 amu. We'll wait and
see how that goes. The long-term plan is to include this
in a model of the system, as well as subsequent
experiments of the specific details of soot production in
the combustion zone. However, this is all work to be done
in the future.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2016 6:52 AM, Bond,
Tami C wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:B265653D-CC47-4D01-9CB6-5A77BDA3A14F@illinois.edu" type="cite" class=""> Hi Paul, and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sorry that I have not been keeping up with
Stoves discussions….</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We have fussed a bit with trying to
characterize the organic matter emitted from wood
combustion. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What kind of characterization do you want?
Full speciation is well-nigh impossible. But one needs
to start with the question of what you want to know
and why? </div>
<div class="">The problem is that this stuff is complex
chemically and doesn’t take well to matching with
standards. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Brief summary of what I know:</div>
</div>
<div class="">- GC/MS is really hard for
characterization because it is poor at identifying
compounds that are large (molecular weight) and polar.
Wood organics are both. You’ll get the light organic
material, but that’s a very small fraction of the
emissions. You can get into derivatization of the
emissions before GC/MS and that may get you a little
more. See all Jamie Schauer’s, Wolfgang Rogge’s work.
Most of it ends up being classified as “UCM”
(unresolved complex mixture). </div>
<div class="">- FTIR— have tried a little. Although it
nominally gives you functional groups, and
occasionally you can see differences between one kind
of wood or burning condition and another, it’s not
very quantitative. Plus there are a lot of overlaps
between the interesting functional groups, so you
can’t distinguish some of them.</div>
<div class="">- 1NMR— kind of like FTIR— you can sort of
see functional groups and that’s about it. </div>
<div class="">- UV-Vis— used for humic matter (and some
“tar” isn’t far off that)— Again not quantitative,
rather just gives a sense of how strong an absorber it
is. You won’t see any structure as you do in UV-Vis of
individual compounds. There are so many compounds that
the entire spectrum smooths out. </div>
<div class=""> —> From our UV-Vis work we found
that most of the stuff dissolves in methanol, not
hexane not water. (Chen & Bond, Atmos Chem Physics
2010, open access)</div>
<div class="">- 13CNMR— which can get at the carbon
skeleton rather than functional groups… tough. You
need HUGE sample sizes and they don’t stay suspended
because anything concentrated enough to measure wants
to precipitate. We ended up using DCM, I think— I’d
have to check. And then, the result was not all that
interesting: we again couldn’t distinguish the
unsaturated bonds, e.g. aromatic vs conjugated but
linear bonds. </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">- LC/MS— expensive and full of
artifacts— I’ve never gotten into it. Too expensive
and haven’t seen the benefit, although I’d be
interested if someone tried.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The question, again, is what you want to
know and why. If it’s some kind of physical property
of the emissions, you’d be better off measuring that.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Tami</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Paul
Medwell <<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Dear
Philip,</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thanks
for another great suggestion.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">This
is also something that is planned. As part of
an unrelated project we have been looking at
this: we are still in the process of finding a
solvent that has a collection yield, that
doesn't interfere with (or gives an
interference profile that we can correct for)
and that OH&S will let us have.
Fortunately, for the cookstove work there are
fewer constraints than the other project
(which is limited to sampling extremely low
flowrates). We'll find a solution and share
it.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cheers,</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Paul</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
</div>
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