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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This is a good discussion, thank you.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>What might help me is an analysis of the post
secondary particulates, after combustion is finished. If these are ash,
then they cannot be burned more completely. If they
are tars and/or carbon then it would tell me what is getting through the
burner. This might help direct me how to improve the design such
that it would better break them down and burn them. At least it
would tell me that the stove design can be improved. This might also be
simpler then characterizing the more complex pre-secondary particulates since
most of these would be burned into CO<FONT size=1>2</FONT> and H<FONT
size=1>2</FONT>O.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am looking forward to seeing the
results from your work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=franke@cruzio.com href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">Frank Shields</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 12, 2016 9:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Tar
characterization</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Paul,
<DIV>This more detailed analysis may be useful when fine tuning or research
for a specific stove and its fuel. Tweet this and that and see if a more
combustable gas is released for a longer period of time or something. Thats
work for a specific stove because those ’tars’ are developed in the stove
based on its design (cold spots or faster air flow etc.). </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>One group of fuels (based on my suggested table) will produce all sorts
of different volatiles when tested in different stoves. But they all start
with using the same fuel. So all this is before testing and has nothing to do
with the stoves. Like testing road surface. Some cars designed for bumpy roads
and some do very poorly on bumpy roads. But they all are tested on the same
surface. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Nov 12, 2016, at 9:21 PM, Paul Medwell <<A
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Hi Frank,<BR><BR>Personally, I'd like
a little more fidelity than a TGA and ultimate/proximate analysis (but
without necessarily going too detailed). I think some interesting models of
a TLUD could be developed with a bit better understanding of the incoming
flow composition to the combustion zone. The gasification process is not my
area of expertise: I'd need to speak with my colleagues about what they can
measure, beyond the "normal" stuff. Because a TLUD is more more uncontrolled
than an industrial gasifier, I just don't know what sort of starting range
of species we expect to see.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul<BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 13/11/2016 3:26 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:FDA33AE3-232E-40E0-B4AA-A258B45C6646@cruzio.com
type="cite">
<DIV>Stoves,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>All we really need is to characterize the fuel. The moisture is an
easy one. Ash is an easy one. Particle size and shape is an easy two. The
organic fraction is what we need to work on. I’m thinking we need to
develop a Table of the flammable volatiles being released from the
Standard Combustion Chamber (SCC) using a specific biomass at different
temperatures when operated to simulate for a specific stove type.
Flammability measured per the O2 feed into that heated tube (mentioned
before) and measuring temperature increase or CO2 exiting. </DIV>
<DIV>So we have a specific biomass (or a representative biomass) and heat
in the combustion chamber using controlled heating coils and controlled
air flow and measure the flammability of the gasses leaving. Perhaps end
up with a table like this:</DIV>
<DIV>Moisture %</DIV>
<DIV>Size distribution range and uniformity coefficient</DIV>
<DIV>Size shape </DIV>
<DIV>Ash %</DIV>
<DIV>Total volatile matter % dw</DIV>
<DIV>Flammability at 450 deg. C</DIV>
<DIV>Flammability at 550 deg. C</DIV>
<DIV>Flammability at 650 deg. C</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Once we start testing and with suggestions from others I am sure we
will change the above as we learn more as what tests are such they are
shown to effect the combustion process. Any specific biomass will
have their own reading from the above tests. When testing stoves the above
results of the fuel used is reported along with the results. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Readings of a specific nature like measuring the chemicals released
that change all the time means nothing. It is only the flammability of the
released gases thats important. And, perhaps, the pattern of this
flammability as temperatures in the combustion chamber or air flow
change. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Each different design of a stove tested using a single fuel (single
mapping of flammability and characteristics) will result in different
degrees of success based on cooking. So it is the job of the stove
designer to optimize success using a fuel he/she specifics based on the
above tests. The fuels stay the same and the stoves modified to work with
a fuel. That stove can be marketed in places where that fuel is
available. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I don’t see this being that hard. A local fuel that is close to the
established mapping that works best for Pauls TLUD (for example) can be
modified to fit using equipment sent to them to do the job. Dry, chip,
split or clean - whatever is needed. Low temperature may just be
interested in temperatures to 550c while Rockets need the mapping up to
higher temperatures. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So no expensive or special equipment needed for testing. Only a lot
of research using a Standard Chamber and operated to simulate a stove
type. Someone needs to design and build the combustion
chamber. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Nov 12, 2016, at 7:58 PM, Paul Medwell <<A
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au" moz-do-not-send="true"></A><A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV>
<DIV text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Hi Tami,<BR><BR>Thanks for the
detailed response.<BR><BR>The answer to your question is "the more we
can have the better". Realistically, it would be too easy to end up with
too much information and just become overwhelmed. Even if it were
possible to obtain full speciation measurements of the
pyrolysis/gasification products, it probably isn't practicable to use.
For example, in the case of gaseous turbulent combustion there is
already too much of a compromise needed for methane combustion: detailed
kinetic mechanisms are often too large for CFD...obviously the problem
becomes much worse for other fuels. There is a huge amount of work in
the area of kinetic mechanism reductions (mainly for engine fuels), but
detailed kinetics of tars seems out of the question any time soon.
<BR><BR>In the first instance, it would be interesting to see a plot of
the mass spectrum of the pyrolysis/gasification products in a TLUD
(before the secondary air inlets) for different operating conditions. It
would also be nice to know the global C/H ratio. We are in the process
of getting a new GC/MS, but only to 300 amu. We'll wait and see how that
goes. The long-term plan is to include this in a model of the system, as
well as subsequent experiments of the specific details of soot
production in the combustion zone. However, this is all work to be done
in the future.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Paul<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 13/11/2016 6:52 AM, Bond, Tami C
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:B265653D-CC47-4D01-9CB6-5A77BDA3A14F@illinois.edu
type="cite">Hi Paul, and all,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Sorry that I have not been keeping up with Stoves
discussions….</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We have fussed a bit with trying to characterize the organic
matter emitted from wood combustion. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>What kind of characterization do you want? Full speciation is
well-nigh impossible. But one needs to start with the question of what
you want to know and why? </DIV>
<DIV>The problem is that this stuff is complex chemically and doesn’t
take well to matching with standards. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Brief summary of what I know:</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>- GC/MS is really hard for characterization because it is poor at
identifying compounds that are large (molecular weight) and polar.
Wood organics are both. You’ll get the light organic material, but
that’s a very small fraction of the emissions. You can get into
derivatization of the emissions before GC/MS and that may get you a
little more. See all Jamie Schauer’s, Wolfgang Rogge’s work. Most of
it ends up being classified as “UCM” (unresolved complex
mixture). </DIV>
<DIV>- FTIR— have tried a little. Although it nominally gives you
functional groups, and occasionally you can see differences between
one kind of wood or burning condition and another, it’s not very
quantitative. Plus there are a lot of overlaps between the interesting
functional groups, so you can’t distinguish some of them.</DIV>
<DIV>- 1NMR— kind of like FTIR— you can sort of see functional groups
and that’s about it. </DIV>
<DIV>- UV-Vis— used for humic matter (and some “tar” isn’t far off
that)— Again not quantitative, rather just gives a sense of how strong
an absorber it is. You won’t see any structure as you do in UV-Vis of
individual compounds. There are so many compounds that the entire
spectrum smooths out. </DIV>
<DIV> —> From our UV-Vis work we found that most of
the stuff dissolves in methanol, not hexane not water. (Chen &
Bond, Atmos Chem Physics 2010, open access)</DIV>
<DIV>- 13CNMR— which can get at the carbon skeleton rather than
functional groups… tough. You need HUGE sample sizes and they don’t
stay suspended because anything concentrated enough to measure wants
to precipitate. We ended up using DCM, I think— I’d have to check. And
then, the result was not all that interesting: we again couldn’t
distinguish the unsaturated bonds, e.g. aromatic vs conjugated but
linear bonds. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>- LC/MS— expensive and full of artifacts— I’ve never gotten into
it. Too expensive and haven’t seen the benefit, although I’d be
interested if someone tried.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The question, again, is what you want to know and why. If it’s
some kind of physical property of the emissions, you’d be better off
measuring that.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Tami</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Paul Medwell <<A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</A>>
wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<DIV><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Dear
Philip,</SPAN><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Thanks
for another great suggestion.</SPAN><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">This
is also something that is planned. As part of an unrelated project
we have been looking at this: we are still in the process of finding
a solvent that has a collection yield, that doesn't interfere with
(or gives an interference profile that we can correct for) and that
OH&S will let us have. Fortunately, for the cookstove work there
are fewer constraints than the other project (which is limited to
sampling extremely low flowrates). We'll find a solution and share
it.</SPAN><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Cheers,</SPAN><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; DISPLAY: inline !important; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Paul</SPAN><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"><BR
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; FONT: 12px Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><BR>
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