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Dear Paul M., (and Tami and all)<br>
<br>
It is great to see you and your team putting serious inquiry and
instrumentation to the task of understanding TLUD characteristics,
in this case, about the nature of the pyrolytic gases BEFORE the
secondary combustion.<br>
<br>
You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"> Because a TLUD is more more uncontrolled
than an industrial gasifier, <br>
</blockquote>
That is a safe statement because industrial gasifiers are much
larger, easier to control, and much much more expensive (with
instruments controls, etc.) for a few units whereas the TLUDs can be
many thousands of units. So, I agree with your statement.<br>
<br>
Where I respectfully "disagree" is with the implied assumption that
there will be considerable variability between TLUD stoves. I
hypothesize that with a specific TLUD stove model and a specific
appropriate fuel and operation in the same way, there will be
considerable consistancy in the pyrolytic gases. <br>
<br>
I do not have instrumentation or skilled personnel to check that
hypothesis, so I am delighted that you are considering to do that
task. <br>
<br>
*********** (What is below is known to Paul M. and others, but is
written here for general readers and students ****<br>
Consider a known TLUD (example is the Champion TLUD by Servals of
Chennai, India, which are available for purchase in Australia, USA,
Europe and some other places, mainly thanks to Australian Paul
Taylor for promotion of distribution). <br>
<br>
Consider "standard" pellets, as are widely available because of the
"pellet stove business" for heating, not for cooking. Great fuel,
appropriate for use in the testing.<br>
<br>
Consider setting several (3 or 4??) standard "tasks" or
operation-modes (after reasonable time for ignition):<br>
A. Moderate power, with BOTH a measured, metered flow of primary
air, AND the same flow but regulated only with simple control of
primary air. "Same" will be seen as equal fire power because that
is set by the primary air flow (when the other variables are
controlled.).<br>
<br>
B. High power.<br>
<br>
C. Low power.<br>
<br>
Collecting samples of the pyrolytic gases will not disrupt the
operations of the stove. Sufficient number of samples are taken,
compared, and the results can be known and reported.<br>
*******************<br>
<br>
I hope that you will do this. Perhaps others might. Good to have
replications by different places. But what I request is that IF
such work is being undertaken, please say so to this Stove Listserv
so that we can be sure that AT LEAST ONE RESEARCH TEAM does do some
variation of this work.<br>
<br>
Of course there can be additional studies with a change of the stove
or using some other fuel. <br>
<br>
But let us remember that even though the TLUD stoves are small
compared to the larger gasifiers, there could be ten-thousand of the
same stove model in an area with most households using basically the
same type of fuel with very similar cooking practices. The research
being discussed could be quite useful for those households and
eventually some millions that will be in similar situations.<br>
<br>
TLUD stove technology research has moved into the sophisticated
laboratories. We know that TLUD stoves work well; now we want to
understand better and also find ways to improve their operations.<br>
<br>
Thank you (and all) for doing research on TLUD micro-gasification.<br>
<br>
Paul A.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/12/2016 11:21 PM, Paul Medwell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5827F84D.5010606@adelaide.edu.au" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hi Frank,<br>
<br>
Personally, I'd like a little more fidelity than a TGA and
ultimate/proximate analysis (but without necessarily going too
detailed). I think some interesting models of a TLUD could be
developed with a bit better understanding of the incoming flow
composition to the combustion zone. The gasification process is
not my area of expertise: I'd need to speak with my colleagues
about what they can measure, beyond the "normal" stuff. Because a
TLUD is more more uncontrolled than an industrial gasifier, I just
don't know what sort of starting range of species we expect to
see.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2016 3:26 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FDA33AE3-232E-40E0-B4AA-A258B45C6646@cruzio.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Stoves,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All we really need is to characterize the fuel.
The moisture is an easy one. Ash is an easy one. Particle size
and shape is an easy two. The organic fraction is what we need
to work on. I’m thinking we need to develop a Table of the
flammable volatiles being released from the Standard
Combustion Chamber (SCC) using a specific biomass at different
temperatures when operated to simulate for a specific stove
type. Flammability measured per the O2 feed into that heated
tube (mentioned before) and measuring temperature increase or
CO2 exiting. </div>
<div class="">So we have a specific biomass (or a representative
biomass) and heat in the combustion chamber using controlled
heating coils and controlled air flow and measure the
flammability of the gasses leaving. Perhaps end up with a
table like this:</div>
<div class="">Moisture %</div>
<div class="">Size distribution range and uniformity coefficient</div>
<div class="">Size shape </div>
<div class="">Ash %</div>
<div class="">Total volatile matter % dw</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 450 deg. C</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 550 deg. C</div>
<div class="">Flammability at 650 deg. C</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Once we start testing and with suggestions from
others I am sure we will change the above as we learn more as
what tests are such they are shown to effect the combustion
process. Any specific biomass will have their own reading
from the above tests. When testing stoves the above results of
the fuel used is reported along with the results. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Readings of a specific nature like measuring the
chemicals released that change all the time means nothing. It
is only the flammability of the released gases thats
important. And, perhaps, the pattern of this flammability as
temperatures in the combustion chamber or air flow change. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Each different design of a stove tested using a
single fuel (single mapping of flammability and
characteristics) will result in different degrees of success
based on cooking. So it is the job of the stove designer to
optimize success using a fuel he/she specifics based on the
above tests. The fuels stay the same and the stoves modified
to work with a fuel. That stove can be marketed in places
where that fuel is available. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I don’t see this being that hard. A local fuel
that is close to the established mapping that works best for
Pauls TLUD (for example) can be modified to fit using
equipment sent to them to do the job. Dry, chip, split or
clean - whatever is needed. Low temperature may just be
interested in temperatures to 550c while Rockets need the
mapping up to higher temperatures. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So no expensive or special equipment needed for
testing. Only a lot of research using a Standard Chamber and
operated to simulate a stove type. Someone needs to design and
build the combustion chamber. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 12, 2016, at 7:58 PM, Paul Medwell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Hi Tami,<br
class="">
<br class="">
Thanks for the detailed response.<br class="">
<br class="">
The answer to your question is "the more we can have the
better". Realistically, it would be too easy to end up
with too much information and just become overwhelmed.
Even if it were possible to obtain full speciation
measurements of the pyrolysis/gasification products, it
probably isn't practicable to use. For example, in the
case of gaseous turbulent combustion there is already
too much of a compromise needed for methane combustion:
detailed kinetic mechanisms are often too large for
CFD...obviously the problem becomes much worse for other
fuels. There is a huge amount of work in the area of
kinetic mechanism reductions (mainly for engine fuels),
but detailed kinetics of tars seems out of the question
any time soon. <br class="">
<br class="">
In the first instance, it would be interesting to see a
plot of the mass spectrum of the pyrolysis/gasification
products in a TLUD (before the secondary air inlets) for
different operating conditions. It would also be nice to
know the global C/H ratio. We are in the process of
getting a new GC/MS, but only to 300 amu. We'll wait and
see how that goes. The long-term plan is to include this
in a model of the system, as well as subsequent
experiments of the specific details of soot production
in the combustion zone. However, this is all work to be
done in the future.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2016 6:52 AM,
Bond, Tami C wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:B265653D-CC47-4D01-9CB6-5A77BDA3A14F@illinois.edu"
type="cite" class=""> Hi Paul, and all,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sorry that I have not been keeping up
with Stoves discussions….</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We have fussed a bit with trying to
characterize the organic matter emitted from wood
combustion. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What kind of characterization do you
want? Full speciation is well-nigh impossible. But
one needs to start with the question of what you
want to know and why? </div>
<div class="">The problem is that this stuff is
complex chemically and doesn’t take well to matching
with standards. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">Brief summary of what I know:</div>
</div>
<div class="">- GC/MS is really hard for
characterization because it is poor at identifying
compounds that are large (molecular weight) and
polar. Wood organics are both. You’ll get the light
organic material, but that’s a very small fraction
of the emissions. You can get into derivatization of
the emissions before GC/MS and that may get you a
little more. See all Jamie Schauer’s, Wolfgang
Rogge’s work. Most of it ends up being classified as
“UCM” (unresolved complex mixture). </div>
<div class="">- FTIR— have tried a little. Although it
nominally gives you functional groups, and
occasionally you can see differences between one
kind of wood or burning condition and another, it’s
not very quantitative. Plus there are a lot of
overlaps between the interesting functional groups,
so you can’t distinguish some of them.</div>
<div class="">- 1NMR— kind of like FTIR— you can sort
of see functional groups and that’s about it. </div>
<div class="">- UV-Vis— used for humic matter (and
some “tar” isn’t far off that)— Again not
quantitative, rather just gives a sense of how
strong an absorber it is. You won’t see any
structure as you do in UV-Vis of individual
compounds. There are so many compounds that the
entire spectrum smooths out. </div>
<div class=""> —> From our UV-Vis work we found
that most of the stuff dissolves in methanol, not
hexane not water. (Chen & Bond, Atmos Chem
Physics 2010, open access)</div>
<div class="">- 13CNMR— which can get at the carbon
skeleton rather than functional groups… tough. You
need HUGE sample sizes and they don’t stay suspended
because anything concentrated enough to measure
wants to precipitate. We ended up using DCM, I
think— I’d have to check. And then, the result was
not all that interesting: we again couldn’t
distinguish the unsaturated bonds, e.g. aromatic vs
conjugated but linear bonds. </div>
<div class="">
<div class="">- LC/MS— expensive and full of
artifacts— I’ve never gotten into it. Too
expensive and haven’t seen the benefit, although
I’d be interested if someone tried.</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The question, again, is what you want to
know and why. If it’s some kind of physical property
of the emissions, you’d be better off measuring
that.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Tami</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 2, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Paul
Medwell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Dear
Philip,</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Thanks
for another great suggestion.</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">This
is also something that is planned. As part
of an unrelated project we have been looking
at this: we are still in the process of
finding a solvent that has a collection
yield, that doesn't interfere with (or gives
an interference profile that we can correct
for) and that OH&S will let us have.
Fortunately, for the cookstove work there
are fewer constraints than the other project
(which is limited to sampling extremely low
flowrates). We'll find a solution and share
it.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Cheers,</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
none; display: inline !important;" class="">Paul</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class="">
</div>
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