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Ron and Nikhil and Crispin and others,<br>
<br>
I admit that (with a few lapses) I read these "exchanges". And I
learn some things. They ARE "on-topic" about stoves for
impoverished people (and I intentionally did not limit that to
biomass-fuel stoves because we need to understand alternatives and
"oppositions"). <br>
<br>
I do note that not a single person sent any message about my summary
of the LPG-stoves webinar. I thought that the data about subsidies
etc and not reaching the truly impoverished in sustainable ways
would get some reaction. No problem. That topic is over.<br>
<br>
I comment about two short segments from recent messages:<br>
<br>
1. Referring to efforts to slow or reverse "climate change" / CO2
increase, there was a comment about <br>
<blockquote type="cite">saving mama earth while her children die. <br
class="">
</blockquote>
Saddly, it is possible that both the earth and her children "die"
(or suffer undesireable consequences) because not enough is being
done for either. <br>
<br>
We should be trying to save BOTH. That could be with separate
efforts for each (such as solar panels and planting trees for the
earth, whicl digging water wells and having water filters for the
people (children of earth). But BETTER if one effort helps both
goals at the same time. And that is the beauty of cookstove
efforts, ESPECIALLY those that can be carbon negative while doing
the cooking tasks with less biomass fuel.<br>
<br>
That happens to be the case of the TLUD stoves. But there is
pathetically little support for TLUD stoves from either the
earth-savers or the children-savers. <br>
<br>
2. I think these were Nikhil's words:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The only connection I see between stoves and
CO2 is that technologies that increase kg CO2 output per kg input
of carbonaceous fuel are a boon to people as well as climate. </blockquote>
I do not understand what "increase kg CO2 output per kg input of
[biomass] fuel" means, or how it is a boon.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/17/2016 1:29 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F47CFB25-CF3A-4B23-B0AD-B9C2794EA034@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">List, Nikhil, and ccs:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>It
is way past my usual bedtime, so just two comments. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a)
I believe this to definitely be “on topic”, so think it
deserves to go to the whole list - as Nikhil seems to approve of
my doing.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b)
Nikhil accuses me of calling him a “denier”. I carefully and
intentionally did not do so. But observe his response near the
end: </div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>“<i
class="">The only connection I see between stoves and CO2 is
that technologies that increase kg CO2 output per kg input of
carbonaceous fuel are a boon to people as well as climate.”</i></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>Anybody
else think that sounds like a denier talking?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 17, 2016, at 12:05 AM, Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Ron: (Hi, Ajay. Please don't
take anything personally. Ron seems to like red herrings
and fears heresy.) <br class="">
<br class="">
I owe you a reply on my past 28 sins but let's keep that
cooking on the back burner or the fire goes out. I will
respond to your 9 comments here. <br class="">
<br class="">
You know I can't stop reporting 'offtopic' items relevant
to fuel, smoke. CDC, EPA will keep on producing material
worth . <br class="">
<br class="">
There is really no point putting all this on the list. You
seem to have no answers and to be interested only in
questioning my "authority" (which I don't care to possess
in the first place) and calling me a "climate denier".
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Sad. Sad. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I will still respond to your comments on my
28 sins, on list, and you may put all this below on to
the List; I don't think it deserves that place. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-----------</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">ND on RWL 1: GACC is a brand.
I don't know who believed in it and why. I will
expand when I get a contract. Maybe a Global
Alliance on Livable Human Environments (GALHE),
maybe a Global Alliance Against House Chores
(GAAHC). </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">ND on RWL 2: I will be happy
to have you on board, so long as I am the chairman
of the board. I am going to request a trip to the
White House Kitchen as well as the kitchens at the
Pentagon, Walter Reed, Army Navy Country Club, Camp
David. Soldiers, health professionals,
restaurateurs, and monks/nuns have a good idea of
what cooking is; many of them have a better
knowledge of the world than the poverty tourists in
academia and media. I will contract the
Congressional Research Service to produce
Country/Regional Handbooks on Cooking and Heating. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">ND on RWL 3: Permit me to
ask: <br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">a) What is the definition
of biomass and why is it appropriate to the
specific context? </div>
<div class="gmail_extra">b) I can understand why
technical characteristics of stoves using other
solids or gases or electricity be excluded from
the discussion - e.g., the effect of power
outages on laundry deliveries in five-star
hotels - but what is the rationale for not
discussing the markets for cooking with such
different fuels? <br class="">
c) In other words, do you have a definition of a
"service standard" and "market" for cooking? Why
not? </div>
<div class="gmail_extra">d) Generally, what is
biomass worth other than the price it fetches or
the cost of producing it? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">e) Has anybody measured
biomass balances at local, regional, national
levels or by agro-climatic zones to understand
variations over time?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">ND on RWL 4: I conclude that
your sole interest is to discuss what
you feel like. I just sent you my 14
October 2016 draft reply to you on coal.
By my count, Colorado alone produced
nearly 1.5 billion tons of coal in 150+
years. (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/rtv8n21.pdf"
target="_blank" class="">Colorado
Coal: energy security for the future</a>,
2005 plus EIA data since.) Please first
expiate your dark coal sins before
preaching chastity to others. <br
class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">ND on RWL 5: I remember
there was a Bioenergy list - not this
one on Stoves - that discussed fuel
chemistry and combustion chemistry. I
see that the ISO IWA says nothing about
fuel chemistry. If you and others on
this list are interested in fuel
chemistry, I am interested in an
inventory of fuels and emissions
organized along fuel chemistry lines. I
can go to coal industry and find a good
history of coal analysis around the
world. I have yet to see a single
biomass fuel chemistry record for any
country. Please get on with the work
instead of ranting against coal. What do
biomass stovers know about biomass
stocks and flows, value chains and
opportunity costs? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">ND on RWL 6: It is because
the "results" and credibility mania have
wasted time and money that I want to
raise GACC and other funds to do
something useful. Peanuts attract peanut
eaters. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">ND on RWL 7: I am done with
your cite-o-logy. Please provide
propositions with which one can agree or
disagree. What is your theory about
ANYTHING relevant to cooking in the
developing countries? Or do you want to
just refer to the pronouncements of GACC
CEO? As far as I am concerned, Kirk
Smith said it all (with Karabi Dutta) in
"In Praise of Petroleum" (Science 2007?)
"Cooking Like Gas" (ESD 2012?), and
Power to the People (Science 2014?). Why
do you just keep dropping his name? <br
class="">
<br class="">
As for Figure 5.6 from Ajay's PhD
thesis, I don't think it's
cost-effective for me to dissect the
data and methods for Guatemala HAPIt.
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
My post on "super-human" GoBbleDygook
explained my reasons for unhappiness. I
might get around to posting unhappiness
with DALYs and all that ritzy dance;
it's just not worth it. The underlying
data quality of global DALYs is
pathetic. And averted DALYs for
different cohorts is intellectual smoke.
Products of Incomplete Combustion. Gold
is tested at high temperature, not by
smoke. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Oh, by the way, "Gold
Standard" peer review typifies virtually
everything that is wrong with the
Academic-Activist-Deceit complex. Sell
it to Al Gore. <br class="">
<br class="">
$1,500 per averted DALY? Why don't we
shut down all hospitals and let people
buy averted DALYs? <br class="">
<br class="">
The whole paradigm of monetizing DALYs
is a sickness. (Ajay: When you are in
Washington next, let's get together for
a beer. Your and Kirk's work is being
abused to n-th degree.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">ND on RWL 8: Nothing is
clean to me about "clean". Above all,
the ISO IWA exercise on Tiering - from
what I can judge from GACC and ISO
websites - and the WHO/EPA/BAMG is
"context free", "fact free". Boiling
Water for some standardized cooks with
standardized bodies -- yeah, right. I
don't find a "service standard" or
"objectives and goals" for "clean" on
GACC website. <br class="">
<br class="">
All I see is YOUR goals </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">- "protect forests?? How
many, where, and when? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">- "reducing the cost of
cooking"? Which cost? By how much?
Where and when? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0
40px;border:none;padding:0px" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">- "required CDR"? By whom?
Why? </div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All I see is another round
of tinkering. Not worth more than a few
million dollars to buy peace. No finance
minister is willing to put down his
$1,500,000,000,000 to buy a billion
averted DALYs. <br class="">
<br class="">
A "clean" cookstoves has no meaning
whatsoever. it's a propaganda term to
snow people and shake down money. The
Clintons did it one way, the Trumps
another. Either give me the definition
and means of measurement, and explain
why it is relevance to human health. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Please explain to me why you feel "<b
class="">excess atmospheric CO2 seems
to me to be the absolute worst
pollutant - with huge health
implications.</b>" The poor suffer the
climate whether or not it is changing,
whether or not the change is
anthropogenic, and whether or not the
Colorado no-Carbo Cult reduces a few
nanograms of coal CO2 emissions per
breath. <br class="">
<br class="">
I have absolutely no patience with being
labelled a "climate denier". The term is
coined by enviro-Nazis, people who would
spend their time modeling and babbling,
saving mama earth while her children
die. <br class="">
<br class="">
Oh, well. Go ahead. Call me names.
Unless you can do better. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">ND on RWL 9: Please educate
yourself on chemistry. Beginning with
coal chemistry. Or acid rain chemistry.
Or the air chemistry of your town, city
or air basin. Then the biochemistry of
human body. We'll talk about atmospheric
chemistry later. <br class="">
<br class="">
I for one am hoping that US government
comes up with keeping the Black Lung
Fund afloat. Putting a carbon tax in
Colorado to fund it will make you happy
and bring coal consumption in Colorado
to zero. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Coal use worldwide has been
increasing - according to EIA, from
around 150 quads in 2010 to around 160
quads now, going up to some 180 quads in
2040. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The news of coal's demise is
premature. <br class="">
<br class="">
The only connection I see between stoves
and CO2 is that technologies that
increase kg CO2 output per kg input of
carbonaceous fuel are a boon to people
as well as climate. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Please go back and read Kirk
Smith. For God's sake if not mine. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Nikhil </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<font class="" face="georgia, serif"><span
style="font-size:12.8px" class="">---------
</span></font></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font
class="" face="georgia, serif"><i
class=""> </i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at
8:02 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Nikhil
and ccs (adding Ajay as a courtesy)
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Glad
to see “on-topic” Can we assume no more
“off-topic” from you?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>See
below.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 16, 2016, at 3:26
PM, Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">Ron: <br
class="">
<br class="">
I am serious about raising a
billion dollars for GACC.
Including for biomass stoves. </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL1: I find this a little
hard to believe. Please expand; some
examples from your past writings to show
you believe in GACC?</b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-"><br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Sad to
see that you are not. The
Alliance needs new partners like
Ivanka. GACC needs to continue
with Leo DeCaprio and Jose
Andres if that is what it takes
to raise money. There’s no hope
for engineers without more
money, I am sure you will agree
(because that is what I have
seen argue a lot for - more
money.) </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL2: I am for the $1
billion number; can you explain why you
think I am not?</b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-"><br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">So far I
thought the purpose of this List
was to discuss ways of producing
- and successfully marketing (I
imagine) BETTER BIOMASS STOVES.
You now want to restrict only to
WOOD-FIRED COOKSTOVES? </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL3: Apologies. I erred. I
should have said biomass-fired stoves -
as in the existing rules for this list.</b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-"><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">I submit
to you that you cannot move an
inch toward better biomass
stoves without also looking at
the competition (coal included)
and defining your terms -
biomass and cookstoves. <br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL4: I disagree that we need
to discuss coal-fired stoves at all. My
hope is to phase them out. We have
limited bandwidth -and folks wanting to
discuss improving coal stoves have
plenty of opportunity to start a list
for that. I probably would join that
list. I hope you are not suggesting
that coal is a form of biomass.</b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-"><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">With
enough data characterizing fuel
chemistry around the world,
moisture variability throughout
seasons, foods that are being
cooked with the cookstoves.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL5: Not sure of the point
here. Are you suggesting this list is
not interested in these topics? </b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-"><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">Far too
much money and time has been
wasted on measuring and debating
the impacts of “improved stoves"
projects. <br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL6: It is clear that this
is your long-held belief (and conflicts
with your support in #1 for GACC funding
increases). One example of your view of
waste seems to have been (all?) of the
work of Kirk Smith? A few days ago you
referenced a PhD thesis by Ajay
Pillarisetti. I found it very
informative and with to recommend it to
this list. See </b><b class=""> </b><span
style="color:rgb(49,84,120);font-family:arialmt;font-size:11pt" class=""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://escholarship.org/uc/item/7hw5z2w2"
target="_blank" class="">http://escholarship.org/u<wbr
class="">c/item/7hw5z2w2</a> . </span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class="">I would be
interested in what part of this thesis
you include in the term “too much money
and time”?</b></div>
<div class=""><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">I submit
there is not an iota of gain
from IHME/WHO GoBbleDygook. <br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL7: It is my strong opinion
that you are in a very small minority on
this view. It would help your case a
lot if you gave a few cites who agree
with you. I find many dozens of cites
in Ajay’s thesis</b><span
style="color:rgb(49,84,120);font-family:arialmt;font-size:11pt"
class=""> </span><b class="">in support
of what he has done - and which you have
otherwise deplored. Here is a key
figure (#5.6) from that thesis that I
find very well argued and find
convincing. </b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><span
id="cid:0B077DCC-0B0A-46EB-96A7-B90D787C23E0"><PastedGraphic-1.tiff></span></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class="">(It opens larger
for me, hope so for others). It is his
Fig 5.6a, with of course much more
detail available there. This
figure says that about $1500 (for added
chimneys) will avert one DALY - and that
this action would be highly cost
effective. How would you or anyone
argue to not use this information? I am
hoping for specifics - not generalities.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
have included Ajay mostly to
congratulate him (and his thesis team)
for a very fine thesis - but also, as a
courtesy, to give him background as we
await Nikhil’s further comments on
Ajay’s modeling effort. For those not
aware of Nikhil’s style - GoBbleDygook
is his disparaging term for the huge
amount of work behind the study called
GBD - Global Burden of Disease. I look
forward to learning (from Nikhil) of
others who agree with him.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>It
appears to me that Nikhil has simply not
understood Ajay’s modeling - as Nikhil
has given no details on his
unhappiness. This would be a good time
to provide details - since it seems
likely that GACC and many others (still
awaiting $1 billion) are quite apt to be
using this.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
am told that the “Gold Standard”
certification group will soon be
approving use of this methodology. That
takes considerable peer review.</b></div>
<div class=""><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">Please
define the service standard and
the environmental objectives and
goals of "clean cookstoves"
movement. <br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL8: I refer you to the GACC
website. I don’t see much difference
there with what we wrote 20 years ago
for this list. What is there about the
word “clean” that is unclear?</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>To
help Nikhil as he asks for my own
definition, I should perhaps repeat my
history with this stoves topic. After
retiring, I developed a rudimentary
version of what is now called a TLUD
over several years - working in Sweden,
Ethiopia, and showed once to friends in
Sudan (which country started my search
because it has been so badly harmed by a
huge dependence on charcoal). In 1995,
I described this charcoal-making
stove on a predecessor list also run by
Tom Miles and after a few months, Tom
asked me to be one of the first
two coordinators of an early version of
this list (those records have been
lost). In this first phase of my
experience with stoves (well after Kirk
Smith and many others), I was motivated
only by saving forests - because
charcoal production is usually so badly
handled (as we have been hearing over
the last few days). In my mind this
fits the word “clean”. This proposed
new type of stove was a vehicle for
making charcoal in a superior manner,</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>As
I became more aware of stove work by
others, I learned that a TLUD is (by
chance?) the cleanest form of stove. To
further protect forests, it is natural
to talk about stoves and health/disease
(GBD). I emphasize they are additive
reasons, not alternative.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>As
I talked about this with others, and
watched the way a stove is tested
(esters never leaving the open door), I
added time savings for the cook as a
reason to support TLUDs. I consider
this part also of the word “clean”
because real world cooks don’t operate
like (the very talented) stove testers.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Then
came a time when it became apparent that
TLUDs had a great shot at greatly
reducing the cost of cooking, as there
is a huge global market for charcoal.
Not because of cleanliness and health -
but those desirable goals are promoted
when someone sees better economics in
TLUDs than rockets (despite the TLUD’s
drawback of batch operation).</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>But
in about 2005 (ten years from the
beginning), with most of my time then
being on RE and EE topics (and not on
stoves), I learned about terra preta. A
charcoal-making stove fit very nicely
with the fabulous news of both greatly
improved soils and the possibility of
biochar (so named two years later)
helping with carbon dioxide removal
(CDR). Climate deniers can’t see the
connection, it appears, but excess
atmospheric CO2 seems to me to be the
absolute worst pollutant - with huge
health implications. I see the
household cookstove market as being able
to eventually supply about 10% of the
CDR needed. But it can be the first -
because this form of CDR is so cost
effective. And it can take place where
(tropical regions) we can expect
responses like terra preta to occur
again (practiced for thousands of years
with zero thoughts of CDR). This
atmospheric side also in my mind falls
under the category of “clean”.
Unfortunately, this is opaque to climate
deniers as they don’t agree that we have
any serious excess CO2 problem.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>So
I go again through this litany to
explain why I am supportive of anyone
looking at stoves as in Ajay’s thesis.
None of these are either/or arguments.
It just happens that I am responding at
this length because I want work like
Ajay’s to continue - as cost numbers
such as in his Figure 5.6 are certainly
going to be able to add to the other
economic values I am claiming
for forest preservation, time savings,
added income, and global warming.</b></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b
class="">Apologies for a too
long-winded answer on my “goals”
for “clean cookstoves”. I add this to
explain why I am so opposed to this list
promoting coal stoves in any fashion
(added to the fact that WHO recommends
against the use of untreated (the usual)
coal for stoves.</b></div>
<div class=""><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra">It’s all
in fuel chemistry, air chemistry
and atmospheric chemistry. </div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></span><b
class="">[RWL9: Can I assume
this emphasis on chemistry means that
you agree with a global goal of getting
back quickly to a CO2 atmospheric level
of 300 ppm or so? Your recent support
of coal seems to deny a problem with 2
degree C rise. As a chemist, where are
you on the urgency of doing something
with global warming? And do you see any
connection with global warming and
this stoves list?</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""> <span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>If
it is not yet clear where I stand on
coal - its demise is decades overdue.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Ron (with a EE
degree - that I am not using in any of
the above)<br class="">
</b><span
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Nikhil
(with a chemistry degree)</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br
class="">
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri,
Dec 16, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Ronal
W. Larson <span dir="ltr"
class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"
class="">Nikhil: cc list
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228m_8169406533739352903Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Can I
suggest that you place
additional “off-topic”
messages on some other
list? (I feel I just
wasted a half-hour.)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228m_8169406533739352903Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>The
answer to your last
question would seem to
be one of those you seem
to most admire - the
Trumps.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228m_8169406533739352903Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Or
what did I miss of
importance to improving
wood-fired cookstoves -
the goal of this list?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228h5">
<div class="">On
Dec 16, 2016,
at 9:15 AM,
Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank"
class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228m_8169406533739352903Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228h5">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">Around
town, there
are rumors
that Ivanka
Trump,
Donald's
daughter,
could be more
significant
than Hillary
Clinton. (The
election is on
World Toilet
Day according
to Crispin.) <br
class="">
<br class=""
clear="all">
<div class="">
<div
class="gmail-m_8391504842197611541gmail-m_3861182285730074228m_8169406533739352903gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class="">
<div dir="ltr"
class=""><span
style="color:rgb(42,42,42);font-family:postoniwide,georgia,serif;word-spacing:-1.12px"
class=""><font
class=""
size="4"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/16/ivanka-trump-could-be-the-most-powerful-first-lady-ever"
target="_blank" class="">Ivanka Trump could be the most powerful first
lady ever</a>, </font></span>Washington
Post 16Dec16. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Ivanka <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://celebritybabies.people.com/2016/07/21/ivanka-trump-raising-three-children-jared-kushner-exhausted/"
target="_blank" class="">loves cooking</a>, has put <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ivankatrump.com/recipes-broccoli-kugel-steamed-artichokes-chicken-salad-veal-marsala/"
target="_blank" class="">recipes</a> on her website, and says about her
book <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/women-who-work-ivanka-trump/1123884764?ean=9780735211322&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2"
target="_blank" class="">Women Who Work</a>, "We learn how to cook and
how to code.
We inspire our
employees and
our children.
We innovate at
our current
jobs and start
new
businesses."<br
class="">
<br class="">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-3834181/First-daughters-fast-friends-unlikely-bond-Chelsea-Clinton-Ivanka-Trump.html"
target="_blank" class="">She and Chelsea are friends</a>, so I am sure
Hillary would
just adopt
Ivanka as the
second
daughter she
didn't have. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Above all, she
arranged a
meeting
between The
Donald and Al
Gore, who
could decide
which way the<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_in_the_Balance"
target="_blank" class=""> Earth in the Balance</a> tips. <br class="">
<br class="">
South Lawn
dinners with
the Clintons
and the Trumps
is the way to
go for UN
Foundation,
Inc. and Bill
Hillary and
Chelsea
Clinton
Foundation,
Inc. I can
devise a $1
billion fund
raising
strategy just
for high class
marketing -
Narendra Modi,
Vladimir
Putin, Dr. Kim
and all, PLUS
a $10 billion
investment
fund for
"clean
cookstoves". <br
class="">
<br class="">
Yup. The time
has come. To
elevate GACC
to the next
level. <br
class="">
<br class="">
The <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://content.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1877168,00.html"
target="_blank" class="">White House kitchen </a> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.thrillist.com/eat/nation/white-house-food-presidential-eating"
target="_blank" class="">wasn't always clean</a>. Maybe the next brand
for GACC will
be Global
Alliance for
Clean Kitchens
and Homes. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Now, where's
my "finder's
fee" for an
even more
glamorous
Cooking
Ambassador? <br
class="">
<span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"
class=""><br
class="">
Nikhil<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
--------- </span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<br>
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