<div dir="ltr">Paul: <br><br>It might become on-topic once Ron reads Kirk Smith. <br><br>Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>--------- </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="georgia, serif">(US +1) 202-568-5831<br><i> </i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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To Nikhil only,<br>
<br>
I agree that your message is "Off-topic". Thank you for making
that clear in your subject line. Please do not make more messages
that are so far off-topic that they just are beyond the scope of the
Stoves Listserv.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="m_5372609412239450046moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_5372609412239450046moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_5372609412239450046moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre><div><div class="h5">
<div class="m_5372609412239450046moz-cite-prefix">On 1/3/2017 9:04 AM, Traveller wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">Oh, dear. Just because a tree is releasing CO2
absorbed earlier makes it carbon neutral? <br>
<br>
Then all trees could be harvested, burnt, and that would still
be carbon neutral. I don't think IPCC allows that -- its
inventorying methods require that such "land use change" be
reported separately. <br>
<br>
****<br>
<div>Another way of putting the question (and I think this is
implied by the current methods) is whether the CO2 released
will in future be absorbed by another tree. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
But that raises a different problem -- this re-absorption may
take years and that it may happen somewhere else. Assuming
that the Drax carbon emissions from biomass burning were to be
re-absorbed in the US forests where the pellets came from is
quite a stretch. <br>
<br>
And if you don't assume that, you leave the field open to any
carbon from biomass combusted anywhere being re-absorbed in a
new tree anywhere. <br>
<br>
Since CO2 from wood combustion in a power plant is no
different from CO2 from my breaths or cremation or CO2 from a
power plant, it is plausible to argue that CO2 from Chinese
coal-fired power plant is what gets absorbed in the net
expansion of boreal forests in Canada and Europe. <br>
</div>
<br>
Aha! But then we have the dilemma of changing the albedo effect.
(<a href="https://thinkprogress.org/planting-trees-climate-change-solution-3e5b6979561f#.jok1faoia" target="_blank">Reforestation Doesn’t Fight Climate Change
Unless It’s Done Right</a>, Natasha Geiling, ThinkProgress, 31
August 2016).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Perhaps it's better to trim boreal forests, convert into
charcoal, and export to Nigeria, Ethiopia, DRC. <br>
<br>
Albedo effect, apart, bioenergy capture has another problem -
"<span>“</span><span>But if you are going to do
BECCS, you are going to have to grow an awful lot of trees
and the impact on land use may have very significant effects
on food security,” (</span><span><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/26/geoengineering-could-offer-solution-last-resort-climate-change" target="_blank">Reflecting sunlight into space has
terrifying consequences, say scientists</a>, Damien
Carrington, Guardian (UK) 26 November 2014)</span>
<div><font size="2"><br>
</font></div>
In short, the CO2 accounting business is riddled with
confusion. <br>
<br>
****<br>
<br>
Deliberate confusion for political purposes. The methods of
GHG accounting are NOT value-free; they (including the choice
to use 100-year GWPs instead of 20- or 50-year GWPs) are
intentionally biased. (I was marginally involved with this
30-odd years ago.) <br>
<br>
The most serious objection to the purported "carbon
neutrality" of "biomass" is that depending on combustion
technology, the emissions of non-CO2 GHGs - methane, which is
counted under Kyoto cooking of numbers, and NMVOCs, CO, which
Kyoto does not permit -- are more potent than CO2. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you add in black carbon, the non-CO2 damage is
significantly higher. <br>
<br>
More so if you use 20-year GWP (my preference for the
developing countries). </div>
<div><br>
The combined GHG loads from biomass direct thermal use around
the world - when counting all GHGs and black carbon (I can
cook up some estimates) - are in the range of all CO2 from
Indian coal-fired power plants, maybe even all CO2 from
Chinese coal-fired power plants. <br>
<br>
So, global warming is due to inefficient biomass use, as much
as it is from India-China coal-fired power plants. <br>
<br>
Surprised? <br>
<br>
Some sages said 16+ years ago, "If one is going to put carbon
in the atmosphere anyway, CO2 is the least harmful species
from climate or health point of view." <br>
<br>
The policy implications of this observation are profound. <br>
<br>
To begin with, biomass is not GHG-neutral. Period. <br>
<br>
<br>
Nikhil</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Frank
Shields <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Nikhil,
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<div>I’m thinking the energy used to make the pellets and
transport are from fossil fuel. The CO2 released during
combustion is from a tree that once took it out of the
air. And during combustion is now releasing it back into
the air - carbon neutral. </div>
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<div>Thanks</div>
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<div>Frank</div>
<div>Frank Shields</div>
<div>Gabilan Laboratory</div>
<div>Keith Day Company, Inc.</div>
<div>1091 Madison Lane</div>
<div>Salinas, CA 93907</div>
<div><a href="tel:%28831%29%20246-0417" value="+18312460417" target="_blank">(831)
246-0417</a> cell</div>
<div><a href="tel:%28831%29%20771-0126" value="+18317710126" target="_blank">(831)
771-0126</a> office</div>
<div><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" target="_blank">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div>
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<div><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
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<div>On Jan 2, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Traveller
<<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">This is about US wood being
exported to the Drax station in England. <br>
<br>
"<span>The
growing transatlantic trade is being
financed with </span><a href="http://reports.climatecentral.org/pulp-fiction/1/" target="_blank">billions of dollars in
European climate subsidies</a><span> because
of a regulatory loophole that allows
wood energy to count as if it’s as clean
as solar or wind energy, when in reality
it’s often worse for the climate than
burning coal. Only the pollution
released when wood pellets are produced
and transported is counted on climate
ledgers. Actual pollution from the
smokestack — by far the greatest source
of carbon pollution from wood energy —
is overlooked."</span><br>
<br>
<a href="http://grist.org/article/e-u-loophole-counts-wood-energy-as-carbon-neutral-its-not/" target="_blank">E.U. loophole counts
wood energy as “carbon neutral.” It’s
not.</a> John Upton, Grist, 1 January
2017<br>
<br>
Why wasn't such loophole applied to
cookstoves project, I wonder. <br>
<br>
Bean-counters for the poor, unite! <br>
<br>
Nikhil<br>
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