<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Nikhil: cc List and Paul</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Whew - 5 messages today from Nikhil and finally one that I can see all of on my screen at once. (Here’s hoping I don’t have to read 5 more tomorrow for the third day in a row.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In three of the four others I see one citation - GACC on Haiti. It would help me (and I think others) if Nikhil would keep all of my messages, not selectively pull out of them. (for his GACC2, Nikhil has excised all of my remarks #1 and #3. Why?)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I will respond about Kirk when I am told which of hundreds of Kirk Smith writings I should read. I seriously doubt that Kirk has written much about the two cites below covering BECCS and albedo. Note that neither of these have much, if anything, to do with stoves.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I don’t have time tonight to refute any of the mostly incorrect and non-pertinent arguments below, but let me repeat one (yNikhil, from below)that could only come from a climate denier - defined here as a person with no interest in carbon dioxide removal (CDR):</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>“<i class=""><b class="">And if you don't assume that, you leave the field open to any carbon from biomass combusted anywhere being re-absorbed in a new tree anywhere</b>." </i></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I interpret Nikhil to mean that CDR via biochar only makes sense when source and sink are in the same block, county, state, or country, (or continent?) Whew! If not, what then does he mean? (Of course you have to read more below.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>In sum, I strongly support Paul’s gentle request to Nikhil to stick to topics that relate to this list - not things again/always in support of coal. And not blame me for not having responded quickly enough to some un-named publication of Prof. Smith (whose work, I repeat, on health matters related to stoves I strongly support - and look forward to learning what I am supposed to dissociate myself from in order to agree that the (9:04 AM CDT) climate-denying material (not in any way stove or health-oriented) below is on-topic.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Last point for Nikhil re his last line below (“<i class=""><b class="">To begin with, biomass is not GHG-neutral. Period</b>. ")</i></div><div class="">- does he think that biochar from stoves cannot be carbon negative?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">ps. I argue these topics (albedo, BECCS, afforestation , etc) most every day - on half a dozen lists - but never on this list. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 3, 2017, at 12:36 PM, Traveller <<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Paul: <br class=""><br class="">It might become on-topic once Ron reads Kirk Smith. <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">--------- </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">(US +1) 202-568-5831<br class=""><i class=""> </i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
To Nikhil only,<br class="">
<br class="">
I agree that your message is "Off-topic". Thank you for making
that clear in your subject line. Please do not make more messages
that are so far off-topic that they just are beyond the scope of the
Stoves Listserv.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="m_5372609412239450046moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="m_5372609412239450046moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:(309)%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" class="">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a class="m_5372609412239450046moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre><div class=""><div class="h5">
<div class="m_5372609412239450046moz-cite-prefix">On 1/3/2017 9:04 AM, Traveller wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Oh, dear. Just because a tree is releasing CO2
absorbed earlier makes it carbon neutral? <br class="">
<br class="">
Then all trees could be harvested, burnt, and that would still
be carbon neutral. I don't think IPCC allows that -- its
inventorying methods require that such "land use change" be
reported separately. <br class="">
<br class="">
****<br class="">
<div class="">Another way of putting the question (and I think this is
implied by the current methods) is whether the CO2 released
will in future be absorbed by another tree. <br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
But that raises a different problem -- this re-absorption may
take years and that it may happen somewhere else. Assuming
that the Drax carbon emissions from biomass burning were to be
re-absorbed in the US forests where the pellets came from is
quite a stretch. <br class="">
<br class="">
And if you don't assume that, you leave the field open to any
carbon from biomass combusted anywhere being re-absorbed in a
new tree anywhere. <br class="">
<br class="">
Since CO2 from wood combustion in a power plant is no
different from CO2 from my breaths or cremation or CO2 from a
power plant, it is plausible to argue that CO2 from Chinese
coal-fired power plant is what gets absorbed in the net
expansion of boreal forests in Canada and Europe. <br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
Aha! But then we have the dilemma of changing the albedo effect.
(<a href="https://thinkprogress.org/planting-trees-climate-change-solution-3e5b6979561f#.jok1faoia" target="_blank" class="">Reforestation Doesn’t Fight Climate Change
Unless It’s Done Right</a>, Natasha Geiling, ThinkProgress, 31
August 2016).
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Perhaps it's better to trim boreal forests, convert into
charcoal, and export to Nigeria, Ethiopia, DRC. <br class="">
<br class="">
Albedo effect, apart, bioenergy capture has another problem -
"<span class="">“</span><span class="">But if you are going to do
BECCS, you are going to have to grow an awful lot of trees
and the impact on land use may have very significant effects
on food security,” (</span><span class=""><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/nov/26/geoengineering-could-offer-solution-last-resort-climate-change" target="_blank" class="">Reflecting sunlight into space has
terrifying consequences, say scientists</a>, Damien
Carrington, Guardian (UK) 26 November 2014)</span>
<div class=""><font size="2" class=""><br class="">
</font></div>
In short, the CO2 accounting business is riddled with
confusion. <br class="">
<br class="">
****<br class="">
<br class="">
Deliberate confusion for political purposes. The methods of
GHG accounting are NOT value-free; they (including the choice
to use 100-year GWPs instead of 20- or 50-year GWPs) are
intentionally biased. (I was marginally involved with this
30-odd years ago.) <br class="">
<br class="">
The most serious objection to the purported "carbon
neutrality" of "biomass" is that depending on combustion
technology, the emissions of non-CO2 GHGs - methane, which is
counted under Kyoto cooking of numbers, and NMVOCs, CO, which
Kyoto does not permit -- are more potent than CO2. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you add in black carbon, the non-CO2 damage is
significantly higher. <br class="">
<br class="">
More so if you use 20-year GWP (my preference for the
developing countries). </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
The combined GHG loads from biomass direct thermal use around
the world - when counting all GHGs and black carbon (I can
cook up some estimates) - are in the range of all CO2 from
Indian coal-fired power plants, maybe even all CO2 from
Chinese coal-fired power plants. <br class="">
<br class="">
So, global warming is due to inefficient biomass use, as much
as it is from India-China coal-fired power plants. <br class="">
<br class="">
Surprised? <br class="">
<br class="">
Some sages said 16+ years ago, "If one is going to put carbon
in the atmosphere anyway, CO2 is the least harmful species
from climate or health point of view." <br class="">
<br class="">
The policy implications of this observation are profound. <br class="">
<br class="">
To begin with, biomass is not GHG-neutral. Period. <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Nikhil</div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Frank
Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Nikhil,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I’m thinking the energy used to make the pellets and
transport are from fossil fuel. The CO2 released during
combustion is from a tree that once took it out of the
air. And during combustion is now releasing it back into
the air - carbon neutral. </div>
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<div class="">
<div class="">Thanks</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div>
<div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div>
<div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div>
<div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div>
<div class=""><a href="tel:%28831%29%20246-0417" value="+18312460417" target="_blank" class="">(831)
246-0417</a> cell</div>
<div class=""><a href="tel:%28831%29%20771-0126" value="+18317710126" target="_blank" class="">(831)
771-0126</a> office</div>
<div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" target="_blank" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
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<div class="">On Jan 2, 2017, at 12:35 PM, Traveller
<<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">This is about US wood being
exported to the Drax station in England. <br class="">
<br class="">
"<span class="">The
growing transatlantic trade is being
financed with </span><a href="http://reports.climatecentral.org/pulp-fiction/1/" target="_blank" class="">billions of dollars in
European climate subsidies</a><span class=""> because
of a regulatory loophole that allows
wood energy to count as if it’s as clean
as solar or wind energy, when in reality
it’s often worse for the climate than
burning coal. Only the pollution
released when wood pellets are produced
and transported is counted on climate
ledgers. Actual pollution from the
smokestack — by far the greatest source
of carbon pollution from wood energy —
is overlooked."</span><br class="">
<br class="">
<a href="http://grist.org/article/e-u-loophole-counts-wood-energy-as-carbon-neutral-its-not/" target="_blank" class="">E.U. loophole counts
wood energy as “carbon neutral.” It’s
not.</a> John Upton, Grist, 1 January
2017<br class="">
<br class="">
Why wasn't such loophole applied to
cookstoves project, I wonder. <br class="">
<br class="">
Bean-counters for the poor, unite! <br class="">
<br class="">
Nikhil<br class="">
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