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Frank and all,<br>
<br>
Group A is the main group, and has sub-groups, some (many) with good
supply of biomass (not pellets). The Deganga study discusses this
group. Our Champion TLUD stove there (West Bengal, India) has over
50% subsidy (that is paid back easily via the functional carbon
credits), so the stoves are eventually profitable for the people,
but there is a shortage of up-front capital to get the stoves out of
the factories. <br>
<br>
Note: The projects and the factories are separate entities. Do
not expect a metal working factory to finance a stove project that
needs 2 to 3 years to break even and then have surplus for many
years. <br>
<br>
And even with the low price of US$15 per stove, there are also
payment plans for less than $10 with monthy payments that are earned
from the sale of the charcoal produced as a "byproduct" of the wood
fuel that is only have the quantity of the fuels with the mud and
3-stone stoves. Sort of win, win, win, win, and more wins. <br>
<br>
I will be presenting on this at the Saturday evening session of
ETHOS (28 Jan in Seattle area), public meeting open to all. Bring
your friends.<br>
<br>
Group B can include many people in the middle class in the poor
countries. But there are also TLUD stoves for that group,
especially the Forced Air ones like Mimi-Moto and FAABulous.<br>
<br>
BIG progress with TLUDs is already moving. More info in the next
few weeks. See you at ETHOS.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/8/2017 2:17 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:3077D758-924C-4438-8D9F-78E45CD33DF6@cruzio.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: small;" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
small;" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: small;" class="">Nikhil,</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
small;" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: small;" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
small;" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: small;" class="">you say:</span></div>
<div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
small;" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica,
sans-serif; font-size: small;" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<font class="" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">In the
interim period, “better solid fuel stoves” can and should be
marketed, without any mumbo-jumbo of WHO IAQ Guidelines or
standards, and the jiggery-pokery of "box models" for
concentrations, HAPIT for aDALY.</font>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Perhaps the part I don’t understand: If we put our
‘clients’ into groups we might have something like this:</div>
<div class="">A) the poorest of the poor: no electricity, no LPG,
no pellets, very little outside support, very little biomass
available, perhaps burning dung or rice hulls etc.</div>
<div class="">B) has pellets and/or limited electricity and/or
limited available LPG and/or prepared fuels</div>
<div class="">C) has all</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Are there still a lot of people still in group A? Is
that group growing or more of them going into group B? Now this
would be a useful study. : ) </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This group (on this list serve) is all about helping
group A survive or advance to group B. Our stoves should be
designed and testing accordingly using their biomass etc. When
people talk about using pellets or prepared biomass they are
only helping group B. If you talk about your stove running on
pellets (Paul!) and you want to help group A then you need to
include and provide a years supply pellets in the sale of your
stove. Or you just market to group B. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">But WE are interested in helping group A - correct?
No more talk of fans, pellets, or LPG unless you plan to supply
the extras needed to catapult them into group B. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Improving group A stoves is what we need to do.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank ` </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div>
<div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div>
<div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div>
<div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div>
<div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div>
<div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 8, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Traveller <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Frank:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You have an excellent statement of a
contextualized problem: "We<span
style="font-size:12.8px" class=""> have a situation
where the 1) Combustion Chamber is fixed and 2) the
available wild biomass to be used is fixed. WE DO
THE BEST WE CAN with what we have."<br class="">
<br class="">
And you "</span><span style="font-size:12.8px"
class="">we optimize them for the best using
available wild biomass that we prepare from the pile
of using the equipment they have."</span><span
style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">
</span><br class="">
I wish this is how the problem of small-scale direct
combustion (including small gasifiers for power) were
defined for every district in India. <br class="">
<br class="">
Sometimes the biomass is plenty and goes "waste",
sometimes it is quite costly to obtain. It's a matter
of land rights and access. <br class="">
<br class="">
I also agree "They need competition" and "<span
style="font-size:12.8px" class="">Quit complaining
and get thinking of alternative uses for all the
money. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px"
class="">Its stupid to require the air be below a
specified particle concentration when we are not
willing to wire in electricity and handout microwave
ovens."<br class="">
</span><br class="">
<span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">Well, UN
Foundation, Inc. also has a parallel initiative to
GACC, and the GACC CEO may also be the CEO of that
-- SE4All (Sustainable Energy for All). It is about
providing electricity to everybody. Again there is
some Tier dogma about quality and quantity of
electricity WITH OUT ANY IDEA OF THE CONTEXT of
productive and income capacities. </span><br
class="">
<br class="">
<span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">But in some
dream world, electricity will solve the household
emissions problem. Whether that will make air
cleaner, for whom, and save whose lives -- all that
will take another boondoggle like ISO IWA for
cookstoves. </span><br class="">
<br class="">
India has a strategy - <font
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"
class="" size="2"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://niti.gov.in/content/electricity-and-clean-cooking-strategy-india"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"
class="">Electricity and Clean Cooking Strategy
for India</a>. In the interim period, "better
solid fuel stoves" can and should be marketed,
without any mumbo-jumbo of WHO IAQ Guidelines or
standards, and the jiggery-pokery of "box models"
for concentrations, HAPIT for aDALYs.</font><br
class="">
<span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">
Nikhil<br class="">
</span><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"
class=""><br class="">
--------- </span></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font
class="" face="georgia, serif">(US +1)
202-568-5831<br class="">
<i class=""> </i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 12:08
AM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank"
class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br
class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Hi
Nikhil,<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br
class="m_-6454427073594612001Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class=""><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 7, 2017, at 10:19 AM,
Traveller <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com"
target="_blank" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-6454427073594612001Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Frank: <br
class="">
<br class="">
Is WBT - or any such non-representative
proxy for cooking and space heating -
the only way to determine if some
combination of fuel and device is
“clean"? <br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</span>
<div class="">FRANK: To determine if a stove
does its job ‘clean’ must be determined at the
end when the meal is served. We are going
through the 6 Box system and starting with the
fuel. We can determine if process is going as
it should by testing downstream without going
all the way to the end - eliminating many
variables found along the way. </div>
<div class="">Box 1) Fuel</div>
<div class="">Box 2 Fuel introduction</div>
<div class="">Box 3 Combustion chamber</div>
<div class="">Box 4 Cooking utensils</div>
<div class="">Box 5 Cooking procedure </div>
<div class="">Box 6 Task completion</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
You do seem to agree that there is no
[FRANK(rarely)] ”clean fuel” on its own,
just a combination of particular type of
fuel and combustion device, operated under
some design basis - “biomass uniformly
prepared, sized and with proper combustion
characteristics known suitable for a
specific stove.” <br class="">
FRANK Correct<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><span class="">But
then you say, “We cannot complain about
what other groups are doing with all the
money allocated to them for improving
biomass stoves and cleaner air until we
give them a direction to go in."<br
class="">
</span>FRANK Correct<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><span class="">I am
afraid that is naive. <br class="">
</span>FRANK Wrong<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">For one, if giving
directions for "cleaner air" means not
just emission rate testing for
representative combinations of fuels,
devices, cuisines in lab and in field but
going through the theology of the "box
paradigm" -- what Harold calls the
"conflation" of effects, without going
into the diversity of contexts - all you
will get is more of the same. ISO TC 285
to TC 2850. <br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">The other reason
is that "cleaner air" is not simply
cooked up in boxes by EPA and BAMG. It
is the exposure profile for all air
pollutants - not just "criteria
pollutants" in the USEPA lingo - and
indeed all health risks that determine
the health consequences. <br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As Cecil and the ESMAP
report I cited three months ago
assert, "contextual" is everything.
Until such a time that biomass stoves
provide as much versatility and
control, and fit in the ever-changing
time demands on poor women, to speak
of "clean air" from domestic stoves is
paramount delusion. <br class="">
<br class="">
If nothing else, you will also have to
grant GACC/BAMG demands that any
switchover from "dirty fuel" to "clean
fuel" (with stoves) be "permanent,
exclusive, and sustained". That is no
stacking. That is the violation of a
cook's privacy and preferences just so
GACC and NIH can cook up "evidence
base" of "health effects of clean
cooking combinations"?? <br class="">
<br class="">
I suppose many stovers - in
universities and outside - did give
direction at the ISO/IWA back a few
years ago (my citation in the post in
response to Harold earlier). <br
class="">
<br class="">
Air pollution control in developing
countries is not a lab job. <br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</span>
<div class="">FRANK: Nikhil - I don’t care about
clean air. We have a situation where the 1)
Combustion Chamber is fixed and 2) the
available wild biomass to be used is fixed. WE
DO THE BEST WE CAN with what we have. If five
combustion chambers are tested (stoves) we
optimize them for the best using available
wild biomass that we prepare from the pile of
using the equipment they have. They are now
‘clean’ as they can be. If one is cleaner than
the others they get the bid for sale. (and
fuel availability and quantity is considered).
Passes some EPA, BANG, ISO, GACC, NIH, IWA or
whatever - WHO CARES when the choice is
between Best we can do OR Dirty. </div>
<span class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">In case of stoves, it has
been a hack job.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</span>
<div class="">They need competition. We
researchers and scientist give them NONE. We
need some creative ideas and risk takers at
the University level. No guts: no glory. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Heres an idea:</div>
<div class="">Helium Surrogate:</div>
<div class="">Get the equipment and see if it
can be made to work for what we want. Bleed
out gases just before the secondary and
determine the distribution and mass balance
from the biomass being burned. Determine the
best composition for gases to burn the hottest
and cleanest. Could end up being a complete
waste of a few 100K USD if it doesn’t. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Heres an idea:</div>
<div class="">Make pellets starting at high
quality in a stove proved to burn them cleanly
and hot. Make a series of pellets with: a)
increasing ash, b) increasing lipids (pine
pitch), c) decreasing carbon density d)
increasing moisture e) increasing size f)
decreasing size g) increasing lignin etc.
etc. </div>
<div class="">Determine the concentration where
they start to fail air quality and/or heat.
Measure using Helium Surrogate (if it works)
the change in gas composition going into the
secondary. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Perhaps we can optimize the wild
biomass used by measure of the composition
going into the secondary once we know what to
look for - or used to problem solve a poor
running combustion chamber. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If lipids are found to be a
problem develop a test procedure that works in
the range we need to look at. We need test
procedures for the components found to be
important. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then when this is finalized we
work on Box 2 :) Fuel Introduction into the
combustion chamber. Pellets can be feed in
many different ways. Sticks introduced at a
rate determine (from the above) to be
optimum. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Quit complaining and get thinking
of alternative uses for all the money. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Its stupid to require the air be
below a specified particle concentration when
we are not willing to wire in electricity and
handout microwave ovens. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards </div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font class=""
color="#888888">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
</font></span><span class="">
<div class=""> </div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">An inside job. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Time to end the pretense.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">Nikhil<br class="">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""
clear="all">
<div class="">
<div
class="m_-6454427073594612001gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""> </div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8px"
class=""><font
class=""
face="georgia,
serif"><i class=""> </i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan
7, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Frank Shields
<span dir="ltr" class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com"
target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"
class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><span
class="m_-6454427073594612001gmail-">
<blockquote type="cite"
class="">
<div class="">On Jan 7,
2017, at 7:34 AM,
Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"
target="_blank"
class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-6454427073594612001gmail-m_4664413524182151757Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div
class="m_-6454427073594612001gmail-m_4664413524182151757WordSection1"
style="font-family:helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"times
new
roman",serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"
class="">Dear
Stovers</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"times
new
roman",serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"
class=""> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"times
new
roman",serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"
class="">What on
earth is a
“clean fuel”?</span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"times
new
roman",serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"
class=""> </span></div>
<div
style="margin:0cm
0cm
0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:"times
new
roman",serif"
class=""><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:calibri,sans-serif"
class="">Thanks<br
class="">
Crispin</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</span>
<div class="">Its biomass
uniformly prepared, sized
and with proper combustion
characteristics known
suitable for a specific
stove. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We cannot
complain about what other
groups are doing with all
the money allocated to
them for improving biomass
stoves and cleaner air
until we give them a
direction to go in. Not
having a direction and
complaining just goes in
circles - as we have been
doing for YEARS! The only
direction (for now) is
“What Preparation is
Required for a Biomass to
work in Paul’s Champion
TLUD Stove? And How Best
is That Done?”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is a big
pile of biomass from a
local community - what do
we need to know about it
and how best to size it
for the Champion? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We need (1) an
equipped PRIVATE lab (no
Universities) (2) creative
personal (3) the stove (4)
the biomass (5) money -
and funders need to know
this is research and not
all research ends in grand
success (as required by
Universities). Ten steps
backwards and one forward.
The one’s forward add up
over time. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
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