<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Paul: cc list and Crispin<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts below (I lost a full response - so this may be too condensed.)<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 12, 2017, at 7:36 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Dear Ron and Crispin, (your two messages are below). Subject line changed to reflect the content.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">All is in reference to:</span><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">an important stove reporting equation of the form e3 = e1 / (1- e2). </blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I am not great at such equations. But it seems to me that the letter e is used both as efficiency and as energy. Whatever. That is not my key point. </span></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: </b>I see them as equivalent. More below on that.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""> Rather,</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Both sides have their appropriate strong points. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">1. Biomass fuel is consumed, and any remaining charcoal is NOT the same as the original fuel. So, 100% of the original fuel is gone. —Crispin is correct about FUEL efficiency.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Not understanding your comment. Can you cite a specific Crispin sentence you support?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>My objection is to the “never”in this Crispin sentence that I objected to earlier today in my first message: </b><i class="" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt;">The error in the WBT is to deduct something from the denominator. This was never correct. The fuel fed is the fuel fed, not something less. Char produced as a co-benefit goes in the top line, not deducted from the bottom.</i><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">2. The charcoal is different from the biomass fuel, but it is still a viable, usable form of energy that came directly from the original biomass. So there needs to be some recognition of its ENERGY value. (If the char has other, non-energy value (such as being good for filters), and may or may not be eventually consumed as energy, that is NOT part of this discussion.)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Agreed. But I think Crispin is objecting to counting charcoal production at all when the intent is NOT to use that energy. This distinction doesn’t bother me - as I know of no other way to keep track of the intended char. Reporting that the char doesn’t exist sure doesn’t make sense.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">3. On an ENERGY basis (not fuel basis), only the actual released energy in the biomass (after subtracting the energy that is still in the charcoal) should be used to calculate the heat transfer efficiency of the stove. So the formula (and Ron’s second table) can be considered correct, but it should be perhaps emphasized that the column heading should be: EE-stove (ENERGY Efficiency of stove) and is not FE-stove (Fuel efficiency of stove). <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I had three column headings: e1 (thermal), e2 (char), and estove = e1/(1-e2) (all in efficiency terms - but they can be converted easily to energy terms by multiplying by the measured input energy (often assumed as 10 MJ).</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If someone wanted to talk in “fuel” terms, I don’t think that would be a major heresy. The only units I think would/could be assumed are joules (or percentages - as here).</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></b></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">************</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">I want to pick up on what Crispin wrote:</span><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class="">Char produced as a co-benefit goes in the top line, not deducted from the bottom.</i></blockquote><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">That realization might have great merit. Can the math-competent people please do that, and we can see the result. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Already being done in WBT4.2.3 - which does both (as did I).</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Basically it says that ALL of the fuel (in the denominator) is used, but there are two products in the nominator. I do not know how to add “Energy captured in the pot" AND "charcoal created (as weight or volume)". </span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Right - have to all be in the same units (energy). WBT4.2.3 is quite clear on how to go from a weight to energy for both input biomass and the char.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Maybe convert the charcoal into units of energy. And then add them. </span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: This is controversial. No one I know is actively arguing for adding them (but char-making stove sales persons will probably do so. But they both have huge meaning - as you make clear below.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">And that sum is divided by the energy of the fuel that is consumed and is no longer in its original biomass form.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL - For simplicity (agreeing with you), I put everything in efficiency (%) terms. But there is no difference. </b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Does this work? Ron, please put another column or two into your second table and send us the results. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I don’t believe anything needs be added. Percentages tells one everything that joules would tell.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Another way to look at “efficiency" of fuel and of energy is to convert everything into monetary amounts.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I like this also - but I don’t think this is part of my difference with Crispin over his use of the word “never” (above/below).</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">$ value of having heated the pot PLUS $ value of the created char / divided by $ value of the biomass fuel.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">For use in this monetary equation, there can be multiple different values for each of the 3 variables. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I think too many for ISO purposes. This is a job for the person selling a stove. Much easier for char-making stoves. But diving $ by $ is permissible.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Extreme values are possible, such as "if the pot does not get hot, the food is not cooked, and the baby dies" (a very high value for the heat to the pot.) Also, biomass fuel that is actually expensive wooden furniture would command a high dollar value. </span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Maybe valuable somewhere to talk about “baby dies” - but not something we need to discuss on this list in the sense you are using it. But the reduction of particulates and CO with each stove is very important - in taking stove improvement into the world of DALYs - which word I strongly support. (And heavily (and illogically in my opinion) debunked by Nikhil.)</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">On the low side, some biomass fuel could be invasive species that must be burned, so burning has no cost, and the act of doing the burning could receive payment. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I think there us virtue in this topic - but not in WBT 4.2.3 - which I hope we can limit this thread to - as (again) is supposed to be related to Crispin’s “never”.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">But just sticking to common, defendable values, we can find ways to COMPARE the economic value of using one stove type (that makes char, for example) with another type that does not. </span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Yes, but not part of today’s disagreement over “never”. Have no fear - charcoal-making stove people will have plenty of ways to make that argument. I believe that Crispin and I are ONLY talking about what should happen in WBT 4.2.3.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">This will become increasingly important if and when the world recognizes special values of charcoal, as in water filters or of carbon sequestration (without being biochar into soils) or as biochar with increased food production (with sequestration as an added benefit.). </span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Not to mention methane, N2O, rural economic development, new building materials, probably reduced plant disease. Hope someone can give you and I a rationale for supporting the view that e2 should not be reported - or why the use of e2 in the denominator is so terrible.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ps - whew - wish I knew why I lost my first version of the above. <br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Stove stuff. I find it interesting.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Paul</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">www.drtlud.com</a></pre><div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On 1/12/2017 4:52 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote cite="mid:YTOPR01MB0235921B77C8DA5567CF2DA5B1790@YTOPR01MB0235.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM" type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Dear Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The problems I have with the equation applied in the WBT are:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;" class=""><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The resulting number is not what it claims to be (the thermal efficiency). It is also not the energy efficiency, nor the heat transfer efficiency, nor the % of energy available from ‘missing fuel’ that was transferred to the pot.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It does not report a number that can be used to compare the fuel efficiency of two or more stoves, its primary function and specific claim, as applied in UN contracts, the GACC contracts, as well as the CDM and Gold Standard methodologies. Relative fuel consumption in those projects are<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">all</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>calculated incorrectly.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Producing char (or not) is not a cooking task and does not enter its efficiency rating. Anything that interferes with the energy in the denominator misleads the reader as to the product’s cooking performance.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The energy content of recovered char is not the same number as the energy ‘not used for cooking’. It is a portion of the ‘not used’ number. In short, if the stove made a lot of small ‘unrecoverable bits of char’ the energy in the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">recoverable</i>char is significantly less than the energy in the residual solids. Subtracting the energy ‘not released by burning’ from the total energy available in the fuel fed in, would give a close approximation of the heat transfer efficiency (the error being partially combusted gases). But that is not what is happens with the WBT formula. Only a portion of the energy in the solid residue is subtracted – the ‘recoverable portion’. Well, who says what is recoverable and what is not? Opinions differ. And, after making this subtraction, what is the proper description of the result of the calculation? It describes no standard reporting metric of thermal performance. It is just a number. It is not even a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">useful</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>number.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Users of the WBT have, for years, been led to believe that it represents the fuel consumption and that comparing the two ‘WBT efficiency’ numbers from two stoves will show the comparative fuel savings by using the formula<o:p class=""></o:p></span></li></ol><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 108pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: 36pt;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">(1-(Stove 1/Stove2))*100%<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The answer is the fuel saved in % (or increase). The answer is only correct if the energy in remnant char. Recoverable or not, is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">not<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>subtracted from the denominator.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Using the WBT ‘thermal efficiency’ numbers, it gives the wrong answer. The fuel use is under-reported. The reason it gives the wrong answer is because it makes the calculation incorrectly. Mathematically, the method employed treats the recoverable portion of the remnant char as if it is unburned raw fuel.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The End<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It is junk science and always was. It is an error introduced in 1985 by VITA against the objections of Feu do Bois and Eindhoven University. Upon review in 1991 (Rani et al) it was rejected as a calculation by the government of India. Good for them.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I do not care how much people have invested in this WBT test. It lies. It is fatally flawed. It doesn’t give an answer people can believe. It has no place at the table. It has to go. It is cheating people out of their investments in stove programmes. Everything based on it is fundamentally flawed – all decisions, all ratings, all money spent and wasted – and Lord knows there has been enough of that.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 36pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron: If you want to report something about the char, use conventional methods and metrics, don’t piggy-back on junk science from Berkeley. So they made a mistake. Fine. Get over it. Extending the deception will not help anyone. At this very moment it is deceiving the UN which is purchasing 10,000 stoves for refugees that will not live up to their performance ratings – because,<i class="">and only because</i>, they were tested using the WBT 4.2.3 and its defective spreadsheet v4.2.4 (Don’t ask me why the numbers don’t match – it doesn’t matter.)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Char production is a function of the mass in and mass produced, expressed as a %. It also has an energy content. Fine. Report it. The downstream uses of char from char-making stoves do not affect in any way the cooking efficiency which is a measure of the fuel needed to conduct a cooking session.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">It is pointless to try to convince us who are working in the field and spending other people’s money to report that a stove using 1.3 kg per of dry fuel cooking cycle uses 650 g ‘because it makes char’. I do not care what type of fuel is going in – if it takes 1.3 kg per time, then the fuel consumption will be reported to be 1.3 kg, efficiency<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">x</i>. If it produces 400 g of char doing so, and you want to report it, the report can say: dry fuel consumption is 1.3 kg per replication; char produced 400 g per 1.3 kg of fuel (31%); cooking efficiency<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">x</i>. There is no free lunch.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There is nothing wrong with reporting the fuel consumption of a stove. There is nothing wrong with reporting the mass or energy of char produced. There is a lot wrong with subtracting any number from the mass of fuel in the denominator representing the fuel needed to perform the cooking task. That is called ‘cheating’.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I have already reported on this list a method for calculating the performance of a pair of stoves like that produced by Dr Nurhuda wherein the second uses the char produced by the first as its input fuel. Any such evaluation can produce the correct answer for the system efficiency of the pair<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">only</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>by correctly calculation the performance of the first stove, which means avoiding the WBT thermal efficiency formula. This is a matter of science, not opinion.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>12-Jan-17 17:08<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><crispinpigott@outlook.com></a><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">miata98@gmail.com</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] ABCEG deceit and conceit (Re: Crispin, Andrew) ON THE SIDE<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">List, <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>This exchange below has reminded me that Crispin and I have not closed the loop on an important stove reporting equation of the form e3 = e1 / (1- e2). About half way down in this message, Crispins says about this equation:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><i class="">The error in the WBT is to deduct something from the denominator. This was never correct. The fuel fed is the fuel fed, not something less. Char produced as a co-benefit goes in the top line, not deducted from the bottom.</i><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>This is to disagree with Crispin’s “never” - and to defend the WBT equation. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span> I will start by suggesting we look at a set of data saying that stove measurements on five successive days gave these results:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><table class="" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; min-height: 14px;"><br class=""></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">E1=thermal(%)</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">E2=char( %)</b></font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Monday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">30</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">20</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Tuesday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">28</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">23</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Wednesday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">32</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">17</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Thursday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">29</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">21</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Friday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">31</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">18</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 2px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Ave’s</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">30</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">19.8</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Max difference</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">4/28 (14%)</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">6/17 (35%)</font></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br class=""><div class=""> No-one following this topic would be surprised if I posited that Crispin would prefer the Wednesday stove which has 14% more water boiling than the lowest, while I should prefer Tuesday with 35% more char than his Wednesday choice.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>So what does the equation in dispute say about this matter? This additional column says that our two choices differ by only 2.2% (and my Tuesday choice is the “loser”)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><table class="" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse;"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; min-height: 14px;"><br class=""></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">E1=thermal(%)</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">E2=char( %)</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(190, 192, 191); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Estove=E1/(1-E2)</b></font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Monday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">30</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">20</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">37.5</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Tuesday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">28</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">23</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">36.4</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Wednesday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">32</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">17</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">38.6</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 11px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Thursday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">29</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border: 1px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">21</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 11px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">36.7</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Friday</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">31</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">18</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 2px 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">37.8</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 88px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 2px 2px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Ave’s</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">30</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">19.8</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 2px 2px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px; text-align: center;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">37.4</font></div></td></tr><tr class=""><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; background-color: rgb(220, 220, 220); border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><b class="">Max difference</b></font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">4/28 (14%)</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">6/17 (35%)</font></div></td><td class="" valign="top" style="width: 89px; height: 12px; border-style: solid; border-width: 2px 1px 1px; border-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); padding: 4px;"><div class="" style="margin: 0px;"><font class="" face="Helvetica" style="font-size: 10px; line-height: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: none; font-variant-ligatures: common-ligatures; -webkit-text-stroke-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">2.2/36.4 (6%)</font></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The important point (which I have so far hidden in this hypothetical example) is that these are not different stoves. These are posited results all for the same stove. The differences are caused by having different operators, different types of fuel, moisture content, , etc. Multiple tests are needed (and are being undertaken) to be able to report a more accurate answer.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The subtraction of E2 in the denominator is NOT leading up to a statement about charcoal production efficiency. It is the exact opposite. The denominator after subtraction is the amount of energy available for boiling water. The resultant answer (about 37.5%, within about 1 %) is the efficiency of the stove if no char had been produced.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>So I am fully happy with using this equation, as long as there is no intent to make and keep produced char. It is NOT an incorrect equation. But it is meaningless if one is intentionally trying to produce char. Crispin and I agree on this.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></body></html>