<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Paul,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can see I need to use a lot more smily faces. : ) when I write. There would be a lot left over from the ten million!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Biomass is such a variation of materials that it is not appropriate to name them like oak, pellets (made of many materials) and dung. It is a continuum. There are no books that list their energy values. Corrections are meaningless. We are not after energy efficiency. We are only after a test method we can use in the lab to compare stoves using oven dry fuel from a target location. Then take onsite using as-Received wild fuel - is my thinking (as of now). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Use five or ten fuels it doesn’t matter. Fill the pipe with whatever you want to get the volatile fraction and char-ash fraction. I have gone over this repeatably for years so not excited to torture people with it all again. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">No need to compare a procedure like this where all variables are controlled and no Look-up data used to other procedures that have so much ‘guessing’ and twisting to fit into an engineer Energy Efficiency formula. We determine if it works by how repeatable it is. And if we see a meaningful difference between data when using different fuels. We are after relative values used to rate different stoves as to better or worst for a fuel.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There is a lot more work involved in classifying a fuel. Physical properties and the different properties that make up the volatile fraction. That if we want to test the biomass at a location and then ‘look up' the best stove to use. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 16, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Frank,<br class="">
<br class="">
I like what you wrote, except for the ten million dollars and the
total number of variables. We do not need to know about every
combination. We would like to know about SOME key combinations, but
only after the method has been shown to work with just a few
mainstream combinations..<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Five fuels, maybe ten. No dirt or leaves or avoidable
contaminations. Example: wood pellets: soft wood and hardwood.
See the difference between them. Clearly state the expected quality
in quantified ways, such as 500 g fills xxx ml and tests at 3 to 7 %
MC. Then, if another fuel in the test is not close enough, THEN
state some corrections. We are NOT after 5 digit precision. <br class="">
<br class="">
Fuels: pick 8 of wood including pellets. Most places and stoves
are only with wood. And pick 2 of other common biomass; .
Maybe pick maize cobs and dung or ???? No need to overdo it, at
least not until the overall methodology gets accepted. Some tests
of some wood with major different moisture content (MC). <br class="">
<br class="">
2. Stoves: burners of dry biomass. Major types: Rocket (pick
two), TLUD-ND (Champion) and TLUD-FA (Mimi-Moto), simple
stick-burners, and for benchmarks we need 3-stone fire and simple
mud stove.<br class="">
<br class="">
The objective is to show that the newly proposed methodology
actually works. And show those results compared to the currently
proposed standard tests. Show a solution.<br class="">
<br class="">
That would be a major accomplishment. MAJOR!!!! Just a few
repetitions with very few major combinations shows us about the
method.<br class="">
<br class="">
Please do not wait for the millions of dollars. Please restate your
proposal.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/16/2017 3:18 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:F6823C7D-821A-4A5E-9823-502BFA523523@cruzio.com" type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Harold excellent outline below on designing and
setting up a test procedure - for the purpose of lab testing
where findings can be taken to the field to establish the
correct (best) stove for the site. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The main problem, I am now thinking, is that we are
not given a clean sheet of paper to work out the different
steps. If that was the case it would be easy. We have been
‘required’ to include two formulas that have made it impossible
to come up with the desired method, spending many wasted years
and countless millions(?) USD in the process. Still with no
method. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The first is the energy efficiency calculation of
((total energy) - (unburned energy)) / energy into the pot. </div>
<div class="">Problems:</div>
<div class="">1) When you stop a stove when the big hand strikes
12 and drag out all the unburned stuff you have a mixture of wet
wood, dry wood, char, torrefied wood, and ash. The energy in
that mess is hard to determine and impossible with any
Robustness that is required for having a good method with such a
variation of feedstocks. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">2) There is NO standard energy values from books
that we can use. Wild biomass contains all types of materials
like bark, dead wood, cotton wood, leaves, nuts and berries,
dirt and such. It must be measured. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">3) The other formulas is where one takes the
hydrogen in the biomass (estimated actually) and the hydrogen
from the moisture and use it in the calculations to ’normalize’
the energy produced back to dry weight. A meaningless exercise.
Comparing is done on a dry weight basis in the lab. Water in the
wild fuel is just part of the fuel and should be reported as
percent moisture but not used to lower the energy value of the
fuel. We should determine what happens with using fuel having
that moisture. If you were to take a dry fuel and runs it
through the method. Then take the same amount of dry basis with
a moisture of, say 20%, would the corrected results be the same
as found using the dry biomass? I doubt it. In fact, if
increasing moisture in biomass changes the amount of char thats
produced (as been mentioned) that is proof you cannot apply that
correction.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Its been like we are told we are required to use
these formula in the method - WE DO NOT. Starting with a blank
sheet and Harold’s guidelines any method we come up with that
works will do. Real easy.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then we will need about ten million dollars to buy
stoves, all types of biomass and test out the procedure. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 15, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">This is how it should be done, as explained by
Harold Annegarn:</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Define the required output, the units and the
accuracy needed. Define an acceptable range of error. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Working backwards from the result through the
formulas needed, define the measurements needed, their
accuracy and precision. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Describe the equipment needed to obtain those
measurements and the conditions under which they shall
be obtained. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The rest falls together. Terms needed are
defined, and no term goes undefined. </div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: initial; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); width: 1003px;
font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">The result is a list of required measurements
with defined parameters that can be used to select
equipment. </div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Thanks</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div>
<div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div>
<div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div>
<div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div>
<div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div>
<div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br class="">
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<div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div><div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div><div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div><div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div><div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div><div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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