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Crispin,<br>
<br>
Nice comment.<br>
<br>
Your response passes the test about saying something truthful and
useful. <br>
<br>
It did not pass the test of addressing the question that I asked.
The question remains, <br>
<blockquote type="cite">I would greatly appreciate some
knowledgeable comments about how THOSE OTHER TESTS handle the
issue of charcoal that is left in the stoves. Is there some
agreement between those many tests?
</blockquote>
Maybe there is a problem with my question. Or maybe nobody
actually knows how remaining charcoal is treated in those tests.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/22/2017 6:19 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:YTOPR01MB02357B1E3018BF6B5245D93CB1720@YTOPR01MB0235.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM"
type="cite">
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Dear Paul</div>
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There are two things to check. First, what is the question that
is being answered? Second, does the metric provide the answer to
that question. </div>
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<br>
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Of course it is obvious that the question has to be valid in
the first place and the method of determining the answer has to
follow basic principles. </div>
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<br>
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Something that is surely not well understood by the
'results-using public' is that all measurements have an
uncertainty. All calculations involving measurements pass that
uncertainty on. The result given in response to any question
therefore has an uncertainty. When that uncertainty is larger
than the supposed benefit there is doubt that the stove meets
the standard of 'better'. When the uncertainty is much larger
than the gain or loss, benefit claims are worthless. That is the
point of Fabio's paper. </div>
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<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">There is a study of indoor air quality
in Ulaanbaatar gers (yurts) by a Korean team. They concluded
that homes with improved stoves have 'significantly worse air
quality' than homes with traditional stoves. 260 v.s. 210
microgrammes per cubic metre 24 hr average (in winter).</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Gasp! Horror! Solid fuel improved stoves
make the problem 'worse'! Alert! Alert!</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Let's look at the statistics. The
uncertainty on the '201' number is ±187. On the 260 it is
±201. The claimed difference is 50. The uncertainty is
>3.5 times larger than the 'difference'. The claim for
'significance' is meaningless. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Next, what was the outdoor air quality
during these measurements? All combustion and excess air has
to enter the home from outside. It was >300, <i>higher
than 260 the whole time</i><span>. Oops. </span></span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><span>They only proved that there is
statistically no detectable difference between indoor and
outdoor air quality whatever the stove type.
</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><span>Cancel the alert. </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><span>So it is not enough to provide a
test 'answer' it has to be accompanied by a range of
uncertainty, or factored into it as I am suggesting for a
'warrantied rating'. The uncertainty can be limited by very
accurate instruments and a well-designed protocol and zero
conceptual errors. </span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><span>Regards </span></span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><span>Crispin
</span></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
<br>
<div>To Crispin and all,<br>
<br>
Crispin wrote about other tests of stoves (not the WBT water
boiling test):<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US">We
should concentrate on evaluating others. There are several.
EPTP, MWBT, CSI, BST, HTP, IS 15132 and so on and on. Let’s
get on with it.</span>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</blockquote>
That is quite a list, including the "and so on and on." <br>
<br>
I would greatly appreciate some knowledgeable comments about how
THOSE OTHER TESTS handle the issue of charcoal that is left in
the stoves. Is there some agreement between those many tests?
<br>
<br>
And be sure that the discussion relates to the stoves that
INTENTIONALLY DO LEAVE CHARCOAL BEHIND.<br>
<br>
Some useful numbers (in general) relating to char-making stoves
(specifically TLUDs), and based on dry weight of fuel and
charcoal:<br>
<br>
100% of fuel (wood) includes 100% of the carbon in the fuel<br>
<br>
Charcoal (weight) yield is about 20% of the dry weight of the
fuel.<br>
<br>
Char (energy) contains about 30% of the ENERGY that was in the
fuel (char is more energy-dense (by weight, not volume).<br>
<br>
Char (carbon atoms)contains about 50% of the carbon atoms of the
original fuel. <br>
<br>
The big cause of those different percentages is that wood is a
carbohydrate, which includes some oxygen and hydrogen atoms
which influence the possible energy (release and burn the
hydrogen) and influence the weight (Oxygen has weight but no
energy value).
<br>
<br>
Paul <br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/22/2017 3:36 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Dear Frank</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I can add to the uncertainty, which
I think has been pretty well covered in the journal
articles, the issue of the validity of the reporting
metrics themselves. This was addressed squarely in Zhang,
Y
<i>et al</i> 2014 which challenged the validity of all
three IWA low power metrics</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="" lang="EN-US"> ....
snip.....<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US">So I am dropping my call for a review of
the WBT 4.2.3. Looking through the available literature,
it has been done by several groups and all a new one
will show is more details and defects. We should
concentrate on evaluating others. There are several.
EPTP, MWBT, CSI, BST, HTP, IS 15132 and so on and on.
Let’s get on with it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color:black"> </span><br>
</p>
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