<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Xavier and List:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See inserts below.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Briefly summarizing - none of your recommended papers gave any insight into the validity of the “denominator equation”. Before anyone sends me additional papers related to any Water Boiling Test, I would greatly appreciate being told that they address this charcoal-value equation in some way.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 19, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Dear Ron,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">You are raising interesting points.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Thanks for sharing the documents of the Lima consensus. It was in 2011. Now we are in 2017. Signatories might have changed mind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Please note that there is also a certain state of mind with people working on the ISO:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">"ISO standards are good for the stove sector. Therefore we have to reach an agreement, as soon as possible. Also we put a lot of work in it, so we'd like to be done with it."<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">This is understandable, but one should not take decisions in haste, without firm scientific basis. Once the ISO standards will be set, it'll be too late. There won’t be a way to change them, or it'll take years and years.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: Could be, but changes are supposed to be much easier than the first approval - I hear. Can you make a guess as to how long starting over would take?</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">So, OK to set standards for stoves, but not at all cost. That's what Crispin has been trying to say, but he has too often be seen as a hindrance.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>My opinion: I'd rather have no standards than bad standards. Bad standards would be devastating. It doesn’t matter if it takes time, ISO standards have to be scientifically valid, or they should not exist.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class=""></span></p></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: My involvement in this process has been engendered by a concern that char-making stoves (which I see as being desired for many applications) can be hurt through modifying 4.2.3 re this “ denominator equation”. So far that has not happened. But I see rejection of the “denominator equation” as having that potential. I consider that equation to be “scientifically valid”. I haven’t heard your view on that topic.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See more notes on the seven attachments - for which I thank you.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">If they are still nowadays supporting the WBT, I’d like to hear the signatories of the consensus tell us on this list why the WBT is a good protocol, and why we should keep using it.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p><o:p class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></o:p></span><br class=""></p></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: As I said earlier - I will be reporting this in about a week</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">"And, from what I hear, essentially one person alone (Crispin) is critiquing it."<o:p class=""></o:p><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""><br class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Crispin is not the only one, trust me. We are a big group, and it is growing. His critics of the WBT find an echo especially with the project implementers, who find the WBT inadequate, and are struggling with testing. Implementers are quiet on the Stove List, they are very busy with day-to-day operations. So was I during more than 3 years when I was with Prakti in India. Plus, the state of mind of implementers is: "anyways, Crispin is on top of that, he is leading the fight, and people in the TC 285 are probably discussing these matters. This is the job of researchers, this is not our job.”</span></p></div></blockquote><br class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: I am sure there are many critiquing</b><b class=""> WBT 4.2.3, but no-one has yet supplied a reference on the “denominator equation” - which I believe is the ONLY way to get valid stove comparisons. I’m anxious to see their reason why - Crispin has yet to give me a reason - much less a convincing one. Nor anyone else. Can you give it a try? What would you replace this equation with?</b><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Please find a list of the studies where the issues with the WBT have been mentioned or studied in detail:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Riva F., Lombardi F., Pavarini C., Colombo E., 07/09/2016</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: I have not gone into this one in detail - as there is no mention of the “denominator equation”. My concern is that I don’t see a discussion of the costs of achieving very high reliability on a result. I think the stove industry will generally be happy with three tests - especially if they are paying for them.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Also, the emphasis here is only on the efficiency computations - whereas the hard (expensive) part of all the WBT measurements is the data on CO and particles.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Key differences of performance test protocols for household biomass cookstoves,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11, Zhang Y, Pemberton-Pigott C, Zhang Z, Ding H, Zhou Y, Dong R., 2014</span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: Similar - also trying admirably for high precision - but I think asking for more than is needed. Again only looking at efficiencies - and never on the “denominator equation.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></i></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Performance testing for monitoring improved biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and Health Project</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">. Energy Sustainable<i class=""></i>Dev 2007; 11:57–70. Bails R, Berrueta V, Chengappa C, Dutta K, Edwards R, Masera O, et al., 2007,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL7: This had a fee, but I am part of a group able to get some papers like this. I found nothing on the “denominator equation”.</b></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><i class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></i></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Robert Pendleton Taylor, 2009</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL8: This definitely looking at the “denominator equation” (that I am trying to protect) - but NOT finding fault with it on theoretical grounds. Only writing on the big inaccuracies possible with if one assumes that the energy density of char is always 1.5 times that for biomass. I agree - and this seems to be supportive - as this does not today apply to 4.2.3. Both energy densities are today being measured (at considerable extra expense) - never assumed.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Influence of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and development of an improved testing protocol</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">. Energy Sustainable Dev 2012; 16:3–12. L’Orange C, DeFoort M, Willson B., 2012</span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL9: Not sent, but downloadable (non-fee) at </b><a href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf" class="">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a></div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I enjoyed this paper; much good background. Here is a pertinent sentence: <i class=""> An energy transfer test such as the WBT or the revised
protocol presented here, alternatively, allows for more control and repeatability
but may fail to capture the nature of how the stove will
perform during real use</i></div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Unfortunately, this paper also does not mention the “denominator equation”.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">How many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always adequate</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">. Energy Sustainable Dev 2014; 20:21–9. Wang Y, Sohn MD., 2014</span></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL10: This one not sent to me. I found (non-fee) at </b><a href="http://escholarship.org/uc/item/7nz614g4" class="">http://escholarship.org/uc/item/7nz614g4</a> . The full list of authors is</div><div>Yungang Wang1,, Michael D. Sohn1
, Yilun Wang2
, Kathleen M. Lask3
,
Thomas W. Kirchstetter1,4, Ashok J. Gadgil1,</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Here is a key sentence on the number issue: <i class="">A literature survey of recent laboratory cookstove testing in peer-reviewed journal
articles shows widely different numbers of replicate tests (Bailis et al., 2007; Jetter and Kariher,
2009; Jetter et al., 2012; McCarty et al., 2008, 2010; Roden et al., 2009; Smith et al., 2007)</i>.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>As I understand 4.2.3, the number “3” is not mandated. I can well understand wanting extreme precision in every data point - but this can be achieved by looking mostly at the top potential winning stoves if there is a competition. I see little reason for this precision for stoves that need improvement. There is a strong preference here for 5 replications.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The “denominator equation” does not appear at all.</div><br class=""><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Systematic and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Zhang Z, Zhang Y, Zhou Y, Riaz A., Pemberton-Pigott C, Annegarn H., Dong R., 2014</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL11: This expressed the greatest concerns - mostly allied with yours. But again, only (I think) two oblique mentions of the “denominator equation”, using the word “charcoal” only twice - in neither case relative to this equation.</b><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I also see mostly (entirely?) here a concern on what is reported - NOT on what is measured nor how it is measured.</b></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>T<b class="">wo others of the seven you sent are subsets of this one.</b></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;"><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-feature-settings: normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight style; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Quality assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Gorily M., Trujillo G., 2013</span></div></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL12: Not received - and I couldn’t find by googling. I hope someone can send me this one.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">I sent you some papers by email.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I believe there are other sources as well, I'll keep gathering more data.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">To my knowledge, none of these papers has been discussed and criticized on a scientific basis by WBT supporters. I am assuming it is because they make a point.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL13: Well now I have critiqued one set. I found very little to justify big changes in 4.2.3 - and nothing related to my reason for wanting to defend the “denominator equation”. The next sentence is mine and I still stand by it. I believe all of the papers you have cited are making relatively small corrections to 4.2.3 - such as the number of replications and suggesting small changes to outputs</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">"I contend that lab testing is imperative. I contend that there is no better lab test that boiling water.<span class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Who has a better approach?"<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">There are other protocols for lab testing: at Prakti, we have been using a slightly modified version of the Heterogenous Testing Protocol. We use contextual testing as well. I believe the Uncontrolled Cooking Test and the CSI Water Heating Test are good as well. They do everything a WBT does.</span></p></div></blockquote><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL14: Please send me a copy of these three or cites - but only if they have an alternative to the “denominator equation”. None of these three employ water boiling?</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">Best,<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">Xavier<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""></span><p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p><div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; 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