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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Ron,<br>
<br>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b
class="">[RWL1: Could be, but changes are supposed to be much
easier than the first approval - I hear. Can you make a guess
as to how long starting over would take?</b><br>
I don't know when the ISO process for cooking stoves started, but
more than 6 years ago?<br>
My guess estimate: twice more to change the standards once they
are adopted, so ... 12 years?<br>
Now, there is momentum, the members of the WG are working
together. How quick can WG get to work together again once the
standards have been adopted and set in stone?<br>
How long to restart this huge machinery?<br>
<br>
<b><span class="">I haven’t heard your view on that topic.</span></b><b
class=""><br>
</b><span class="">I am not very opinionated on that subject. I
agree that the charcoal produced could be considered as a
"benefit"</span><b class=""> </b><span class="">given by the
stove, but there may be other ways to account for it. I agree
this remaining charcoal should be accounted.</span><b class=""><br>
<br>
</b><span class="">Even if this question is still under
discussion, the WBT issues with the questions of boiling and
simmering, the unsure repeatability, the results leading to
potentially very large errors render it useless.</span><b
class=""><br>
</b><br>
<b class="">[RWL4: I am sure there are many critiquing</b><b
class=""> WBT 4.2.3, but no-one has yet supplied a reference on
the “denominator equation” - which I believe is the ONLY way to
get valid stove comparisons. I’m anxious to see their reason
why - Crispin has yet to give me a reason - much less a
convincing one. Nor anyone else. Can you give it a try? What
would you replace this equation with?<br>
</b><span class=""><span class=""></span><span class="">I don't
know with what I would replace this equation, I am not a
scientist. I think it should be discussed on the List, like
you are doing now, that is good.<br>
But whatever the results and the duration of this discussion,
what matters is that it is</span> not the only issue with the
WBT, as mentioned above, and all the other issues pointed out by
the studies have never been contradicted.</span><b class=""> </b><span
class="">All the other issues are enough to decide to stop using
the WBT.</span><b class=""><br>
</b><br>
<b class="">I think the stove industry will generally be happy
with three tests - especially if they are paying for them.<br>
</b><span class="">On the contrary, I think the stove industry
will be very unhappy with three tests that does not allow to
know at all how their stove perform.<br>
Especially if they are paying for them.<br>
<br>
</span><b class="">I found very little to justify big changes in
4.2.3</b><b class=""><br>
</b><span class="">Really?! It doesn't raise any alarm in your
mind when authors write:<br>
</span><span class="">
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<!--StartFragment--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black">"However,
different authors
have been raising doubts about the consistency of WBT results,
focusing in
particular on three issues: (i) L’Orange et al. </span><span
style="font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:#0080AE">[6] </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";
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the role of
thermodynamic uncertainties (viz. variable steam production
and boiling point
determination) on results repeatability; (ii) Zhang et al. </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
"Times New Roman";color:#0080AE">[7] </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black">raised questions about the rationale of some
calculations and
about metrics terminology; (iii) finally, Wang et al. </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:
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style="font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:black">criticised the statistical approach recommended
by this
standardised laboratory-based test to evaluate, communicate
and compare
performances and emissions of tested stoves, i.e. using the
arithmetic average
of three replicate tests.<o:p></o:p></span>
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justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;mso-pagination:none;mso-layout-grid-align:
none;text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"">The
results suggest how considering
only the mean values of the outputs of the WBT and
neglecting intrinsic
uncertainties of the results may lead to make large errors
and
misinterpretations regarding the ICSs’ performance. Indeed,
for all the three Classes
analysed, at 90% degree of confidence, the percentage of
‘‘improved” stoves
obtained by considering the mean values of the WBT is among
3 and 6 times
higher than the percentage resulted from this analysis at
least. At 99%
confidence level, only 15% of all the supposed ‘‘improved”
stoves emerged as
real ICSs at most. When enough statistical information is
provided from WBT
results, only the Stove with fan model of cookstoves seemed
to reveal real
improvements with a probability greater than 93%. This work
shows how
neglecting the epistemic statistical uncertainties
originated from WBTs – as
done by a large portion of the literature, which reports
results from few
lab-tests replicates without sufficient statistical
information – might lead to
misinterpreted evaluations of ICSs’ performance, with
potential negative impact
on beneficiaries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<!--EndFragment-->
</p>
<span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:
justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;mso-pagination:none;mso-layout-grid-align:
none;text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"">The
results suggest how considering
only the mean values of the outputs of the WBT and
neglecting intrinsic
uncertainties of the results may lead to make large errors
and
misinterpretations regarding the ICSs’ performance. Indeed,
for all the three Classes
analysed, at 90% degree of confidence, the percentage of
‘‘improved” stoves
obtained by considering the mean values of the WBT is among
3 and 6 times
higher than the percentage resulted from this analysis at
least. At 99%
confidence level, only 15% of all the supposed ‘‘improved”
stoves emerged as
real ICSs at most. When enough statistical information is
provided from WBT
results, only the Stove with fan model of cookstoves seemed
to reveal real
improvements with a probability greater than 93%. This work
shows how
neglecting the epistemic statistical uncertainties
originated from WBTs – as
done by a large portion of the literature, which reports
results from few
lab-tests replicates without sufficient statistical
information – might lead to
misinterpreted evaluations of ICSs’ performance, with
potential negative impact
on beneficiaries."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:
justify;text-justify:inter-ideograph;mso-pagination:none;mso-layout-grid-align:
none;text-autospace:none"><br>
</p>
</span><b class=""></b><span class=""><span class="">There is
something rotten in the WBT, and small changes won't change
anything to it. Small changes and updates have happened on a
regular basis these last years, to no avail.<br>
<br>
</span></span><span class="">I think it is good that you want to
bring answers to your denominator equation, and won't stop until
you do. That is important.<br>
I also think that we don't need to answer that </span><span
class="">question to move forward<b> </b>on the WBT question.</span><span
class=""></span><b class=""><br>
</b><br>
<span class=""></span><span class="">Best,</span><b class=""><br>
<br>
</b><span class="">Xavier</span><b class=""><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/23/17 02:54, Ronal W. Larson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:69C36B66-A621-4432-8F00-23E8E0C8FC6F@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
Xavier and List:
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See
inserts below.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Briefly
summarizing - none of your recommended papers gave any insight
into the validity of the “denominator equation”. Before anyone
sends me additional papers related to any Water Boiling Test, I
would greatly appreciate being told that they address this
charcoal-value equation in some way.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 19, 2017, at 5:11 PM, Xavier Brandao
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class="">Dear Ron,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">You are raising
interesting points.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Thanks for sharing
the documents of the Lima consensus. It was in 2011.
Now we are in 2017. Signatories might have changed
mind.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Please note that
there is also a certain state of mind with people
working on the ISO:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class="">"ISO standards are good for the stove sector.
Therefore we have to reach an agreement, as soon as
possible. Also we put a lot of work in it, so we'd
like to be done with it."<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">This is
understandable, but one should not take decisions in
haste, without firm scientific basis. Once the ISO
standards will be set, it'll be too late. There won’t be
a way to change them, or it'll take years and years.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
</blockquote>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL1: Could be, but changes are supposed to be
much easier than the first approval - I hear. Can you
make a guess as to how long starting over would take?</b></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class=""></span>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">So, OK to set
standards for stoves, but not at all cost. That's what
Crispin has been trying to say, but he has too often
be seen as a hindrance.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>My opinion:
I'd rather have no standards than bad standards. Bad
standards would be devastating. It doesn’t matter if
it takes time, ISO standards have to be scientifically
valid, or they should not exist.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><br class="">
</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL2: My involvement in this process has been
engendered by a concern that char-making stoves (which I see
as being desired for many applications) can be hurt through
modifying 4.2.3 re this “ denominator equation”. So far
that has not happened. But I see rejection of
the “denominator equation” as having that potential. I
consider that equation to be “scientifically valid”. I
haven’t heard your view on that topic.</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See
more notes on the seven attachments - for which I thank you.<br
class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class="">If they are still nowadays supporting
the WBT, I’d like to hear the signatories of the
consensus tell us on this list why the WBT is a good
protocol, and why we should keep using it.<o:p
class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""></o:p><o:p class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></o:p></span><br
class="">
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL3: As I said earlier - I will be reporting
this in about a week</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;">"And, from what I hear,
essentially one person alone (Crispin) is critiquing
it."<o:p class=""></o:p><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""><br class="">
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Crispin is not the
only one, trust me. We are a big group, and it is
growing. His critics of the WBT find an echo
especially with the project implementers, who find the
WBT inadequate, and are struggling with testing.
Implementers are quiet on the Stove List, they are
very busy with day-to-day operations. So was I during
more than 3 years when I was with Prakti in India.
Plus, the state of mind of implementers is: "anyways,
Crispin is on top of that, he is leading the fight,
and people in the TC 285 are probably discussing these
matters. This is the job of researchers, this is not
our job.”</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL4: I am sure there are many critiquing</b><b
class=""> WBT 4.2.3, but no-one has yet supplied a reference
on the “denominator equation” - which I believe is the ONLY
way to get valid stove comparisons. I’m anxious to
see their reason why - Crispin has yet to give me a reason
- much less a convincing one. Nor anyone else. Can you
give it a try? What would you replace this equation with?</b><br
class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpFirst" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Please find a list
of the studies where the issues with the WBT have been
mentioned or studied in detail:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></i></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Fuzzy
interval propagation of uncertainties in
experimental analysis for improved and traditional
three–stone fire cookstoves,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Riva F., Lombardi
F., Pavarini C., Colombo E., 07/09/2016</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL5: I have not gone into this one in detail -
as there is no mention of the “denominator equation”. My
concern is that I don’t see a discussion of the costs of
achieving very high reliability on a result. I think the
stove industry will generally be happy with three tests -
especially if they are paying for them.</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Also,
the emphasis here is only on the efficiency computations -
whereas the hard (expensive) part of all the WBT
measurements is the data on CO and particles.<br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Key
differences of performance test protocols for
household biomass cookstoves,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Twenty-Second
Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11, Zhang Y,
Pemberton-Pigott C, Zhang Z, Ding H, Zhou Y, Dong R.,
2014</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL6: Similar - also trying admirably for high
precision - but I think asking for more than is needed.
Again only looking at efficiencies - and never on
the “denominator equation.</b></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></i></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Performance
testing for monitoring improved biomass stove
interventions: experiences of the Household Energy
and Health Project</span></i><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class="">. Energy SustainableDev 2007;
11:57–70. Bails R, Berrueta V, Chengappa C, Dutta K,
Edwards R, Masera O, et al., 2007,<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL7: This had a fee, but I am part of a group
able to get some papers like this. I found nothing on
the “denominator equation”.</b></div>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><i class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></i></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">The
shortcomings of the U.S. protocol</span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Robert Pendleton
Taylor, 2009</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL8: This definitely looking at the
“denominator equation” (that I am trying to protect) - but
NOT finding fault with it on theoretical grounds. Only
writing on the big inaccuracies possible with if one assumes
that the energy density of char is always 1.5 times that for
biomass. I agree - and this seems to be supportive - as
this does not today apply to 4.2.3. Both energy densities
are today being measured (at considerable extra expense) -
never assumed.</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Influence
of testing parameters on biomass stove performance
and development of an improved testing protocol</span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">. Energy Sustainable
Dev 2012; 16:3–12. L’Orange C, DeFoort M, Willson B.,
2012</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL9: Not sent, but downloadable (non-fee) at </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf"
class="">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a></div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
enjoyed this paper; much good background. Here is a
pertinent sentence: <i class=""> An energy transfer test
such as the WBT or the revised
protocol presented here, alternatively, allows for more
control and repeatability
but may fail to capture the nature of how the stove will
perform during real use</i></div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Unfortunately,
this paper also does not mention the “denominator equation”.</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">How
many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove
performance and emissions? — Three is not always
adequate</span></i><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class="">. Energy Sustainable Dev 2014; 20:21–9. Wang
Y, Sohn MD., 2014</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL10: This one not sent to me. I found
(non-fee) at </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://escholarship.org/uc/item/7nz614g4" class="">http://escholarship.org/uc/item/7nz614g4</a> .
The full list of authors is</div>
<div>Yungang Wang1,, Michael D. Sohn1
, Yilun Wang2
, Kathleen M. Lask3
,
Thomas W. Kirchstetter1,4, Ashok J. Gadgil1,</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Here
is a key sentence on the number issue: <i class="">A
literature survey of recent laboratory cookstove testing
in peer-reviewed journal
articles shows widely different numbers of replicate tests
(Bailis et al., 2007; Jetter and Kariher,
2009; Jetter et al., 2012; McCarty et al., 2008, 2010;
Roden et al., 2009; Smith et al., 2007)</i>.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>As
I understand 4.2.3, the number “3” is not mandated. I can
well understand wanting extreme precision in every data
point - but this can be achieved by looking mostly at the
top potential winning stoves if there is a competition. I
see little reason for this precision for stoves that need
improvement. There is a strong preference here for 5
replications.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The
“denominator equation” does not appear at all.</div>
<br class="">
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span class="">·<span
style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal;
font-feature-settings: normal;
-webkit-font-kerning: auto; font-synthesis: weight
style; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Systematic
and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for
thermal performance of biomass stoves</span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Zhang Z, Zhang Y,
Zhou Y, Riaz A., Pemberton-Pigott C, Annegarn H., Dong
R., 2014</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL11: This expressed the greatest concerns -
mostly allied with yours. But again, only (I think) two
oblique mentions of the “denominator equation”, using the
word “charcoal” only twice - in neither case relative to
this equation.</b>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I
also see mostly (entirely?) here a concern on what is
reported - NOT on what is measured nor how it is measured.</b></div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>T<b
class="">wo others of the seven you sent are subsets of
this one.</b></div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cambria; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;"><span class=""
style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);"><span class="" style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-indent: -0.25in;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align:
justify;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify; text-indent:
-0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><span class="">·<span style="font-style:
normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt;
line-height: normal; font-feature-settings:
normal; -webkit-font-kerning: auto;
font-synthesis: weight style;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;" class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><i
class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">Quality
assurance for cookstoves testing centers:
calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT</span></i><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">, Gorily M.,
Trujillo G., 2013</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL12: Not received - and I couldn’t find by
googling. I hope someone can send me this one.</b><br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Cambria; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-transform:
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify; text-indent:
-0.25in;" class=""><span style="font-size: 10pt;"
class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">I sent you some
papers by email.<o:p class=""></o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I believe
there are other sources as well, I'll keep gathering
more data.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">To my
knowledge, none of these papers has been discussed and
criticized on a scientific basis by WBT supporters. I am
assuming it is because they make a point.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL13: Well now I have critiqued one set. I
found very little to justify big changes in 4.2.3 - and
nothing related to my reason for wanting to defend
the “denominator equation”. The next sentence is mine
and I still stand by it. I believe all of the papers you
have cited are making relatively small corrections to 4.2.3
- such as the number of replications and suggesting small
changes to outputs</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class=""></span>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom: 0.0001pt;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">"I contend that lab
testing is imperative. I contend that there is no
better lab test that boiling water.<span class=""> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Who
has a better approach?"<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class="">There are other protocols for lab
testing: at Prakti, we have been using a slightly
modified version of the Heterogenous Testing Protocol.
We use contextual testing as well. I believe the
Uncontrolled Cooking Test and the CSI Water Heating
Test are good as well. They do everything a WBT does.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL14: Please send me a copy of these three or
cites - but only if they have an alternative to
the “denominator equation”. None of these three employ
water boiling?</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">Best,<o:p
class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
!important;" class=""></span>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 10pt;" class="">Xavier<o:p
class=""></o:p></span><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline
!important;" class=""></span>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); margin-bottom:
0.0001pt; text-align: justify;"><span style="font-size:
10pt;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">Stoves mailing
list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">to Send a Message
to the list, use the email address</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
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font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or
Change your List Settings use the web page</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;" class="">for more Biomass
Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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