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Dear Camilla</div>
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How about this:</div>
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As a major player, one of the most important on the producer's side, in the world of improved stoves, how about you post in as complete detail as possible, the test results you have received from the five testing centres. </div>
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If it was a WBT then there should be a spreadsheet for tests or sets of tests. Several of us will look them over to provide assessments. Do this before the ETHOS meeting. </div>
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The great value of having the original measurements is that I and others can recalculate ývalid metrics (at least) and in some cases valid results, or more valid results, and to be able to compare with the results of other methods. </div>
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I am willing to put them in the testing folder of my website www.newdawnengineering.com so they are accessible. They could also be posted on this discussion list under a category of 'test results'.</div>
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I have in mind posting the processing sheets so instead of getting a WBT output which we are pretty sure tells us little, we could calculate without perhaps half of the errors and use whatever result we can. We can create our own Stoves list conparison chart
with valid metrics, at a minimum, and offer some boilerplate advice on how to interpret results. </div>
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Planners, policy managers, stove manufacturers, designers and trainers will then be able to get access to ýmaterials they need and guide the sector to more success than we are having now. It also completely bypasses gate-keeping wherever it arises. </div>
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Cecil, you are the organisations man. How to we structure this level of citizen science? Make sure you are in a position to include the social science aspects, so central ýto product acceptance. </div>
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Camilla, you'd be far better off paying Cecil $1000ý to do that than getting another test performed. You would at least have something credible. </div>
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Tami, I don't think we are going to wait for anything to be reviewed or decided. The WBT should be abandoned forthwith and we should settle on something else. If Shell wants to fund something, it should be properly writing up whatever that is. </div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin (going off line for a day)</div>
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<div>Dear Camilla, leaders of GACC, and all,<br>
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Camilla has confirmed inconsistent results from 5 testing centers. <br>
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GACC has announced the "round robin" of testing the same stoves at different testing centers. GACC needs to present about those results at the ETHOS meeting. Ranyee will be there.
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Note: The comparative testing is NOT just to make sure that testing centers are doing tests correctly. The results can be used to comment on the tests that are being used. Are there other results such as what Camilla has presented?
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The GACC has paid for these round robin test results, and it would be beneficial to give out that data, and not just say "it was helpful" or something else like that.
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Certainly at ETHOS we should hear about this.<br>
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Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/24/2017 7:16 AM, Camilla Fulland wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Dear all,
</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">It is not very often I do participate in the discussion on this list. I do, however, follow it closely. I am writing now to give my support to
Xavier and his call to stop the use of the WBT. Being a user of test centres and highly dependent on having valid results for our stoves, I must say I’m deeply concerned about the use of the WBT. Prime has so far tested the same stove in five various test
centres recommended by GACC and the results are not just different each time, in some cases they are even the opposite of each other. So how can we as a producer say anything about the efficiency or emissions of our stoves to our donors or potential customers?
Basically I can ask, what are you after? A clean stove or an efficient stove? And then I select the report that is suitable for the purpose. To me, the WBT and ranking of stoves using this is a joke and a danger to the credibility of the entire stove industry.
Moreover, we are sick of having spent thousands of dollars on test results that mean nothing!
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The only protocol we do support is the CSI Indonesia protocol as this seems to produce relatively “true” results backed by field results.
</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I raised our concerns about the WBT with the GACC and the Gold Standard in 2015 but no progress for the users of such tests seems to have happened
since then. This is highly worrying as millions of dollars are paid out based on manipulated test results “verified and approved” by the GACC as they are the main promoters of this testing method giving it credibility towards other “non-stove” donors. </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Camilla</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="">Camilla Fulland</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="">CEO | Prime Cookstoves</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style=""> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""></span><a href="mailto:camilla.fulland@primestoves.com"><span style=""><span style="">camilla.fulland@primestoves.com</span></span><span style=""></span></a><span style=""><span lang="NO-BOK" style="">
</span></span><span style=""><span style=""></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="">Norway: +47 48 12 05 37</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="">Indonesia: +628 2147 600 141</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span style="">Skype: camilla.fulland</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""></span><a href="http://www.primestoves.com"><span style=""><span style="">www.primestoves.com</span></span><span style=""></span></a><span style=""><span lang="NO-BOK" style="">
</span></span><span style=""><span style=""></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style=""><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> onsdag 18. januar 2017 23.08<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Advocacy action: ask the GACC to stop promoting the WBT</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Dear friends,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">There have been a lot of fierce discussions on the stove discussion list lately. I think most of us are unhappy with a certain number of sector-wide issues.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">There is one thing in particular that appalled me. I read the study by Riva et al.:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">"Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves"</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308900170_2016_Riva_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308900170_2016_Riva_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">I am appalled that we are in 2017, and again another study shows how much the Water Boiling Test is flawed, and is leading us in the wrong direction(s).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">I am appalled when I think that Crispin has been telling us about it all these years (10 years now?), and his warnings have too often fallen on deaf ears.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Radha Muthiah, the CEO of the GACC, said in her introduction of the GACC 2016 annual report: "The Alliance worked with UNHCR to develop procurement guidelines
that include evaluation of stove and fuel performance, affordability, usability, safety, and durability. This is an example of how organizations can adapt international standards to support their priorities and decision-making."</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Crispin mentioned that the procurement guidelines were based upon the WBT.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We are in 2017, and important decisions for thousand of stoves to refugees are still based on the WBT, a test which does not allow us to really know how
a stove will perform. This is scary.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">At the end of last year, Prakti was commissionned by the World Bank to review the testing ecosystem in India. I had the chance to talk with many stakeholders,
especially from the U.S., and to have enlightening discussions. Things have barely started to move it seems. A few people have started to see the shortcomings of the WBT. But this is all too slow.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">What we fail to measure are the damages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">How many tests results are probably meaningless, and so useless? How ignorant were we about the real performance of so many stoves? Many of us could see
how different performance in the field was, compared to performance in the lab.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">How many not-at-all-improved stoves were built, promoted, and disseminated?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">How many stove projects or companies failed because of a test that was problematic in the first place?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">How many efforts, how much money was lost because of poor testing?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Crispin is right, I could not agree more with him on that: before being able to do the R&D that we need so much, we need valid metrics. There is no way
around that. This should be our first priority.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We need to act now; but, to act and get results, we must focus on what is important, on what is central, on what is foundational. Now, we need good testing;
it is as simple as that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">The goal is not to point fingers, nor put the blame on anyone. What is done is done, the only thing that matters now is: what do we do from here? We need
to work together constructively.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We cannot say we didn't know.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">I discussed with Crispin, Adam, and a few others. I am starting an advocacy action with this email actually.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">It is very simple.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">I think we need to address the GACC. Despite all the criticism, the GACC did a lot of work for the stove sector, and, like it or not, is still regarded
as our main representative to policy makers and those with the capital to fund meaningful change at scale. We need to be working with them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We would ask the GACC:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">· to publicly acknowledge that the WBT has major shortcomings</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">· to remove the protocol from its website, so cookstoves sector stakeholders are not using it</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">· to actively promote development and use of other, valid, protocols</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">There were a lot of heated discussions around the WBT in the past. Because of that, other protocols were included in the TC 285 process. This is not good
enough.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We don't want invalid protocols to be promoted alongside valid ones. I believe the WBT is still the most used protocol, and anyone can download it on the
web, and (mis)use it. That does a lot of harm.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Here it is, on top of the page:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span class="gmail-msohyperlink"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"><a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/protocols.html">http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/protocols.html</a></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Good and valid protocols do exist. They work very well, give more and better data than the WBT. We do not have, at all, to use the WBT. Why would we keep
using it at all?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Recent articles have shown that we are losing credibility as a sector. We cannot regain it if we keep using invalid testing. I think this sector is comprised
of good people who want to do good science and build healthy foundations.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">If you think you are one of these people, please contact me at my email address to show your support for this initiative:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com"><span class="gmail-msohyperlink"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</span></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">If you have an opinion on the matter, let's please discuss it here on the stovelist. If you dont agree, if you think there are good scientific grounds for the
WBT as a valid protocol, or think for this or another reason that it should still be used, please let's discuss it, in scientific terms, on this list.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">The outcomes of this discussion will be brought to the GACC, and we will continue discussing it with them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">We have all dedicated a significant portion of our lives to this work; let us not let bad science, or past wrong decisions undermine all that we have accomplished,
or all that we might. Can we stand together, whatever our differences of opinion on the best stoves, or fuels, or development practices and agree that in testing our assumptions, pseudo-science and demonstrably flawed methods have no place in this sector?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Please join, please tell people around you about this initiative.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">2017 is just starting, let's start it on the right foot.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif; color:black">Xavier</span></p>
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