<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi Ron, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">see below</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 31, 2017, at 9:04 AM, Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Frank, list and ccs</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1. Three objections:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a. You say: “<i class="">Year after year going nowhere ..” . </i> I’ve been part of this list for more than 20 years, went to my first stoves conference (Pune India in about 2000) and been going to ETHOS for quite a few of its 17 (?) years. This was by far the best year - lots of progress.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I agree a lot of progress has been made in stove development although I have not followed closely. But it would be nice if they could get some help from the scientist. We have made no progress in ways to help them, in fact it seems we are going farther away from helping them. </div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b. You say “<i class="">It’s real simple”. </i>I find the entirety (including my part of the dialog on biochar and CDR) to be exceedingly complex. Yes - some parts are simple.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>The stove testing and the approach is much simpler then what people are rambling about. Just follow the plan taught in grade school. Our job is not to find out what the people will use but to test the stoves others have found to be the ones they will use. Test to optimize with fuels available, test to define limits to fuel characteristics both chemical and physical. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>c. You say: “<i class="">Not our problem “. </i>If not ours - whose? Maybe not specifically yours (and I don’t know of anyone who is trying to tackle all), but, collectively, there are plenty of people on this list (some thousand - mostly silent) who are tackling all the problem areas you list (and more).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Not the scientist (stove tester) problem to determine the stove people will use. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div class="">2. As an example of an unexpected unknown that I saw for the first time yesterday: Norm Baker is doing some extremely strong work on very large TLUDs, and he gave an outstanding talk on his 16th model (called “Ring of Fire”). He later showed me parts of a 1.5 hour run with a pyrex window inserted into the side of his barrel. Neither of us know how to explain the clear picture of pyrolysis gases (smoke) traveling DOWN near this window (mostly - not periodically). Anyone else seen this? (pretty hard without a window). Clearly the overall gas flow is upward - as he produces plenty (35%) of high quality char.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>All (most?) of Norm’s char goes into his extensive home garden - with real scientific handling of the testing. He calls the char difference “incredible”.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>It would be so nice to test the biomass going (physical and chemical) in and the char quality coming out so to be able to repeat this in other places. To know the limits of the biomass that this stove will still operate in and produce the same quality char. Perhaps optimize the process to make more / better char. Perhaps monitor the gases going to the secondary to know the best gas mix that produces the best cha left behind. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>We do none of that. There is no control what-so-ever of what he is doing. Not because of him but us scientist. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>Frank </div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(Norm’s was one of five char-making talks in the final breakout period yesterday; more coming on that and everything else I was able to attend - to be mixed in with other response.)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3. In particular, GACC and EPA staff gave excellent reports - well beyond what has been given in the past.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 28, 2017, at 1:34 AM, Frank Shields <<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Nikhil,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Well how is this all working for us so far? Year after year going nowhere and on the road to continue. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Its real simple.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We go from (a specific) biomass and through some one specific device we use that energy to cook one specific meal. Boil the problem down to that simple problem. Work it out in the lab to find the limits to the biomass fuel for that device. And how best to use utensils to cook that food. Then we have done the job. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If others want to add conditions for safety, air quality, color and shine, stable, weight etc - then let them. Not our problem. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 28, 2017, at 12:04 AM, Traveller <<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Frank: <br class=""><br class="">Delighted. Thank you. You bring "meal" and "toast" in the discussion, not just wood quality and combustion and heat transfer in the abstract. <br class=""><br class="">Food, fuel, stove, operating practices - everything can and will change. (For one, average family size in India is probably 4 or 3 for perhaps 50% of the rural families. I did some numbers in 2012 and didn't get into district details. A cook now frequently works outside, even with two babies. At least, she doesn't have two babies at home for more than five years of cooking time.) <br class=""><br class="">Yes, "<span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">A toaster is for making toast. " On the other hand, why "</span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">We have biomass >> and >> a fully cooked meal. "?? <br class=""><br class="">You do recognize "</span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">We need one for frying and another for hot oil cooking etc. " and also that biomass varies. <br class=""></span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">So, boiling water should evaporate, as should WBT. Have a kitchen performance test. Find PARTIAL solutions instead of a "fully cooked meal". Get away from the GACC gabbing about "health benefits" from "complete and irreversible transition to clean cooking solutions". <br class=""><br class="">Make a stove for one task, specific to a context. Forget this top-down idealism of "doing something for the poor". Watch what poor have done for themselves. There are too many variations in four billion people, and think of some half a billion coming on every decade. <br class=""></span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">David Stein had written a few days ago about solar cooking with biomass backup -- to have an "integrated" cooking solution. <br class=""><br class="">I would instead have a "dis-integration" of the meal. Some portions are "outsourced" - primary foods are no longer produced and stored at home but bought from others (grains, eggs, milk, oil). For the urban poor, leavened bread, tortillas, injeras are increasingly bought in the market. Same with snacks and such. <br class=""><br class="">Some can be fragmented at home - one stove for heating water, one for frying, one for stewing, and one for home-made breads.<br class=""><br class="">Someone just needs to go tour the new peri-urban areas, villages within cities, conurbations of quite a variety. Poor people migrate. Some are transient. <br class=""><br class="">Foods vary, not just across groups but over time. <br class=""><br class="">To me, this "test first" mentality is a handicap of scientists. If I really mean to get mean, I would say it is an elitist fancy (or worse). <br class=""><br class="">More so with what to me are irrelevant metrics - fuel consumption and PM2.5 hourly emission rates. Metrics are more important than methods. We lost our way in pursuing false gods - saving forests - and are doing more of the same now in GACC's "Evidence Base" party - health, climate, livelihoods, gender relations. <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""><br class=""></span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">--------- </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px" class="">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class=""><i class=""> </i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Nikhil,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The stumbling block is people believing cause is: “are irrelevant performance metrics - fuel consumption and emission rates” . : )</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A toaster is for making toast. The energy comes from an electrical outlet. What is between the energy outlet …. and …. perfect toast is some man made object that does the job. So first it must make excellent toast from the energy from the outlet. Conditions we apply is safe to use, low energy consumption, looks good, etc. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We have biomass >> and >> a fully cooked meal. We first establish the conditions to get to that stage. Wet wood will not work. Sawdust will not work in a Rocket Stove. So we first establish the limits for the biomass for a stove. Then we establish a task that is completed and acceptable to the cook. Water boiling is one that can represent several meals (rice etc.). We need one for frying and another for hot oil cooking etc. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Only after this is done do we apply Conditions that must be met. Safe, low smoke, low wood use, fast, low energy + high energy - whatever we want. But this only done after we get the Fuel established that using this combustion chamber will cook this meal. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are no shortcuts! </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You (and others) have listed several procedures that I have not seen. The only test I know of that is even close to do what we must first do is the WBT. But it is so poorly designed is does not work. I believe it can be corrected and I have made suggestions to that over the years. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And there is research needed to see if we can do some of the things I am thinking of. A lot of work is still needed before an official test can be presented. If we do anything else different than the above we will just be back here next year. Same O - Same O. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div><div class="">Thanks</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></font></span><div class=""><div class=""><div class="h5"><br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 27, 2017, at 9:42 PM, Traveller <<a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-4511275264979264705Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Frank: <br class=""><br class="">The stumbling block to progress are irrelevant performance metrics - fuel consumption and emission rates for, heavens, BOILING WATER! <br class=""><br class="">Electricity and gas folks are skewered by ultra-Greens for their fuel-cycle GHG emissions, just to make sure the earth is balanced on the backs of the poor. <br class=""><br class="">But they had an advantage - the purportedly "exhaustible" fuels were used some four times over what was supposedly "left in the ground" in 1970 and the purportedly "renewable biomass" was costly, inaccessible, or had better uses. (Even that 1909 Journal of Home Economics article said there are superior uses of wood in America than burning it in the hearth.) <br class=""><br class="">Unless the biomass folks stop obsessing over bean-counting and manufacturing "co-benefits" in health, climate, livelihoods and women's empowerment - in other words, unless they get their heads out of the firebox and put ":cook" back in "cookstoves", they will keep arguing among themselves. <br class=""><br class="">After all, they seem to want to ensure that their egos are sufficiently fed. The ethos of ETHOS, I might say. <br class=""><br class="">I am tempted to put a slogan below my signature - "Usable Stoves Suited to Contexts", or USSC. Think I will raise $300+ million? :-) <br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Nikhil<br class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="m_-4511275264979264705gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">--------- </span></div><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px" class="">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class=""><i class=""> </i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 6:11 AM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">My only point was that at the rate and direction we Stovers are heading the pv people, no matter how many years, will likely solve the problem before we do regarding smoke.<br class="">
Frank<br class="">
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Sent from my iPhone</blockquote></div></div></div></div>
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<div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div><div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div><div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div><div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div><div class=""><a href="tel:(831)%20246-0417" value="+18312460417" target="_blank" class="">(831) 246-0417</a> cell</div><div class=""><a href="tel:(831)%20771-0126" value="+18317710126" target="_blank" class="">(831) 771-0126</a> office</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" target="_blank" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="m_-4511275264979264705Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div><div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div><div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div><div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div><div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div><div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div><div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div><div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div><div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div><div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div><div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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