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Cecil, <br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2017 12:43 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com">cec1863@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:20170205184308.5398613.83508.33422@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Dear
CPP, Jock, Paul, et al,</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I
think I gave my best response to your question in my next to
last post to the list on the topic of CO2 drawdown (re Jock)
which began with Occam's razor.</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, that was a very good response!!! (which I happened to read
after this current message from you.). In very many ways I am in
agreement. And I think that you will find that the approach of the
West Bengal TLUD stove efforts is very close to what you are
recommending. Not a perfect match, but quite close. <br>
<br>
Could you boil down your two messages into 5 to 15 "check points"
against which the West Bengal TLUD efforts (and other stove
projects) could be analyzed? You pull those check points from your
messsages, without reference to any stove or project. Examples:<br>
<br>
Some are saying the same thing:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">judged by end users as to have
delivered....... (what people want)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">earn the highest approval ratings from
actual stove users </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">These operator preferences and culturally
preferred performances "trump" the efficiency and emission
performance of improved scientifically designed stoves. </blockquote>
*******<br>
<blockquote type="cite">the only way to turn the charcoal production
into a socio-economic benefit in the minds of local stove users is
to create a reliable local demand for the surplus charcoal
produced by a TLUD. </blockquote>
This was done in the Deganga project (see rhe report)<br>
******************<br>
Disagree partially here:
<blockquote type="cite">My idea is to start the stove revolution by
smuggling radical improvements in efficiency and emission
reductions without the stove user having to change his or her
stove skills and operating behaviors very much or at all. </blockquote>
TLUDs are "radical improvements" in the eyes of the West Bengali
TLUD users. In eastern Darjeeling they called it "jadu" (magic)
stove. They still cook the same foods in the same pots. And fuel
preparation is NOT an issue there. But they changes were not
smuggled in or indirectly presented. The stoves were demonstrated
publically, and people wanted them. No need to trick anyone. If
the people will not accept the changes, they will reject the
stoves. MUCH depends upon the quality of the introduction of the
stoves, which is well done in WB.<br>
<br>
*************<br>
other issues. eg, to NOT be by a big company? <br>
<br>
*********<br>
<br>
It remains to be seen if the West Bengal work can sustain its
initial successes and grow and be replicated elsewhere. <br>
<br>
Looking forward to support by Stovers.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:20170205184308.5398613.83508.33422@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Specifically
I think it is unseemly for Euro American stove scientists and
unelected Foundations funded by very rich titans of industry and
their political allies to be inserting indicators into stove
performance tests which turn the stove into a technology which
minimizes CO2 and black carbon production when there is no
cultural consciousness, interest or recognized personal benefit
to the stove buyer from reducing the stove users carbon
footprint. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The
notion seems to be that if we monetize the benefit to the
planetary ecosystem by giving a cost for each ton of CO2 buried
in the ground which indirectly helps pay for the stove and also
the stove NGOs - or through the sale of charcoal to nearby cooks
using braziers - it seems to me we are on the verge of becoming
delusional. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Why
say that? Because of the fragility of the resulting financial
instruments and the sheer complexity of the resulting carbon
trading markets. There is little or no moral accountability by
the managers of global carbon markets and funds and stove buyers
in villages in India and Africa. It is a playground for for
chancers and high living members of the lords of poverty. It
does not empower the bottom up transformation of the local
economy and the healing of the regional eco-system. It runs the
risk of becoming another Tulip Mania <span style="font-size:
initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"> that is
managed by computer monks in glass towers heated by coal and
gas powered electricity generating plants. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">So my request is that we reduce the scale of our
stove interventions down to an arena where the actors and
agents are part of a moral community which can hold each other
accountable to their agreements. Therefore it is a dangerous
distraction to allow carbon taxes to be transferred from
Cleveland Ohio to Timbuktoo to subsidize the importation of
high quality TLUD or any other improved stoves manufactured in
China and costing say $100 delivered to a family eeking out a
bare living on a turn over of $2 to $5 a day. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">My work in the townships of Lusaka clearly
indicated that very low income households can not save more
than 10% of their daily income for more than a few weeks
(about 2 weeks) so at a dollar a day a family will be able to
save $1.50 to $7.50 in a two week time horizon. Zambians say
saving is luck because any family crisis will wipe out a two
week stash of savings.</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">My advice to myself and others is to think and act
locally to discover a stove that will be a viable and
respected friend of the poorest households at the BoP. I
advise us to smuggle radical new stove technologies into the
traditional stove boidies, cultures of stove operation,
cooking and fuels that dominate the local stove economy. So
let's smuggle radical new stove technologies into the
traditional biomass energy economy. Evolve the new stove in
situ inside the shell of the old
stove/fuel/operator/fabricator economy.</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">That is all I have to say on how to innoivate break
throughs in situ.</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">In search and service,</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">Cecil</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro',
sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align:
initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</div>
<table style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"
width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align:
initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width:
1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB
Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;">
<div><b>From: </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, February 4, 2017 7:48 PM</div>
<div><b>To: </b>Stoves</div>
<div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] CO2 drawdown
(Re:Jock)</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<div id="_originalContent" style="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';">Dear
Cecil</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';">How
does the additional labour involved stack up against
potential cash?</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';">Jock
posits, "</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: 'Slate Pro'; font-size: initial; text-align:
initial; line-height: initial;">If you are living in $2 per
day, if making charcoal could double your income, and maybe
even improve your kitchen garden..."</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">People living on $2 a day get a great deal on
their livelihood from the local environment. What is the
opportunity cost of the time taken to prepare fuel, load a
batch burner, extinguish the char, do something agricultural
with it like preparing balls of it to dose fertilise plants?</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">In a $2 a day economy a little charcoal isn't much
even if you sell it as fuel. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">From what I understand from Jock, the motivation
is to repair a busted climate, everyone should do their
part. I can't see how that char can ever have a value of say
$1 if the opportunity cost is time that could be spent doing
something else. 'using it' is also part of that opportunity
cost. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">Jock points out it is not economically viable
(yet). Maybe the analysis by the cook Will not be economic
but gain/expense of time. People with a cash income of $2
per day don't usually live on that income, they live by
investment of time. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">Thanks</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Slate Pro';
font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align:
initial;">Crispin
</span></div>
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