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Lloyd,<br>
<br>
My response here can be easily ignored. But it might help clarify
the situation of char-making stoves (TLUDs).<br>
<br>
Your comments say that whatever energy value is left behind after
the cooking task is completed should be counted as if it were wasted
energy (unless it will be used for cooking, which is not the case I
am presenting.)<br>
<br>
Biomass has energy.<br>
<br>
When that biomass is wet, and is placed into a biodigesto<b>r for</b><span
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biogas),</font></span><span
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there is a lot of energy remaining in the digestor. Does all of
that unconverted energy get charged against the efficiencies of
cooking with biogas?<br>
<br>
Oh. And extreme case? Not a case of combustible fuel? Only look
at the biogas (not the source "stuff")?? Essentially "woodgas" is
the same as "biogas" because both were derived from biomass, but the
cooking is done with the gases, not with the biomass itself.<br>
<br>
Splitting hairs? Playing with definitions? Maybe. But something
to think about.<br>
<br>
And I constantly object to Crispin's (and other's) switching between
FUEL measurements and ENERGY measurements when not all of the energy
is extracted from the fuel ON PURPOSE.<br>
<br>
Personally, I am caring less and less about what is in the
equations. There is still much more info to come about the success
of the char-producing clean-burning TLUD woodgas stoves that are
being strongly accepted in very poor areas in West Bengal, India,
with a business model that includes financial sustainability with
carbon credits or simply with some financial inputs such as have
gone to other types of stoves but not to TLUDs. <br>
<br>
(Please note that the prevoius sentence did not use the terms WBT or
ISO or the other stuff that is getting all the discussion. Nor am
I taking sides with Ron or others about subtracting the energy value
of charcoal from the demoninator.)<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/2017 12:57 PM, Philip Lloyd
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Ron<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
would like you to know that Crispin’s position on the
char-deducting formula is supported by most of those working
on ISO TC 285. He is definitely not a lone voice crying in
the wilderness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">There
is absolutely no doubt that the formula is wrong, if you are
trying to talk cookstove energy efficiency. Thermodynamics
defines energy efficiency in terms of useful energy
delivered/ energy input, and that is the gross energy input,
not some net figure. In the case of cooking, it is the
energy used in cooking divided by the energy in the raw fuel
fed to provide the cooking heat. If the solid stream
remaining at the end of a cooking sequence still has some
components such as char that could provide additional
energy, then if they can be put back in the stove for use in
a later cooking sequence, there is no impact on the cooking
efficiency, but if they are removed from the cooking system
then they represent a loss and the cooking efficiency is
reduced relative to what it would be if all the fuel fed
were reduced to ash. That’s the science, and all arguments
to the contrary fail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">An
analogy may make this clearer. Some cookstoves also provide
useful space heating. In this case the efficiency of use of
fuel for cooking and heating is (useful heat provided for
cooking + useful heat released for space heating)/energy in
fuel fed. The efficiency for cooking remains useful heat
provided for cooking/energy in fuel fed, and the efficiency
for space heating is useful heat released for space
heating/energy in fuel fed, and the two efficiencies are
additive as they should be – and which they wouldn’t be if
the CDF were correct. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Please
accept that the cdf is DEAD.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Prof
Philip Lloyd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Energy
Institute, CPUT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">SARETEC,
Sachs Circle<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bellville<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tel
021 959 4323<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cell
083 441 5247<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">PA
Nadia 021 959 4330<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Stoves
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Ronal W. Larson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 6, 2017 5:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass; Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Differences in stove
testing ---- was Re: ETHOS 2017 agenda and logistics<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">List and Crispin<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span>The following in response to Crispin’s message of
last night (delayed in part by the Super Bowl - sheesh -
what an ending!)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span>Inserts below.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 5, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Dear
Ron</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">“…</span></b>I went a lot further
reporting on the test experts I talked to at ETHOS -
NONE of whom agreed with Crispin on the topic of
this reply - the way to handle char in reporting
efficiencies. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
provides a comment on the poor understanding of
the principles of engineering and performance
rating amount those who you contacted at ETHOS. It
is sad that those how claim to lead are so at sea
when it comes to making such simple
determinations. Perhaps you are not aware that the
‘char-deducted formula’ is unique in the world
when reporting the % of fuel energy delivered as
‘work’.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL1’: Re sentences #1 and #2 - it is truly
amazing that ALL of the experts on this topic are
incorrect - and only you have the true knowledge. It
reminds me of the way the “97%” of climate change
experts are dismissed by deniers.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>Re sentence #3 - you are correct - I am “<i>unaware</i>” of
the uniqueness - because it is not true. As one
example, the CSI methodology used in the Philippines
uses it. The CSU methodology does (incidentally,
Jessica Tryner’s doctoral thesis includes this CDF = “<i>char-deducting
formula</i>” - and is terrific). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I hope readers will note that below there
is NO mention of how Crispin would handle the situation
of most interest to those of us working with TLUDs -
using something other than the CDF for tier placement
purposes. I say the CDF undervalues char when looking
at tiers - but I can live with it. Crispin is silent on
how to merge char making and tiers - repeat TIERS, not
the CDF alone.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>The CDF is not different in principle than
subtracting the energy in unused wood (or do you think
that should not be allowed also?)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Char
making is not ‘work’ when it comes to cooking
energy delivered.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL2’: We are getting off topic here, but
since it takes energy to make char (about double that
retained in the char), www could argue about whether
this is “work:.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">>John Mitchell supports the
existing “denominator equation” - as does EVERYBODY I
talked to at the ETHOS conference. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Ditto
– if true, it is significant that the ETHOS
participants you discussed this with do not follow
this list, read about the problems and understand
the implications, or consider that scientific norms
should apply to stove testing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL3’: Right, because you say so, we
should disregard all the other expert statements (I mean
official in the TAG discussions - not on this list or at
ETHOS). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I can assure you the experts at ETHOS have
been reading this list. EVERY one I talked to was
fully aware of the controversy. You underestimate (and
insult) their ability as well to “<i>understand the
implications or consider the scientific norms…”</i></b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">><b>[RWL1: I am agreeing
with decades of usage to make the “<i>cooking
efficiency metric number"</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>more
accurate. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
cooking efficiency is the ratio of cooking
energy to the energy in the fuel fed into the
stove. Comparing the rating of two stoves
calculated on that basis gives a direct
comparison of the fuel consumption to
accomplish a task. More on that below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL4’: You would be correct if that was
the accepted method of comparing stoves. The accepted
method, when char was trivial, is/has been to make the CDF
calculation more accurate (less unexplained variation). </b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>The ONLY accurate
denominator is one with the char being
subtracted - as the ratio is the heat into the
cook pot divided by the total energy that
COULD BE available for that measure of energy
into the cookpot. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
is a description of the heat transfer
efficiency. It is unfortunate you are not
learning from this interchange. I have
explained in detail how to calculate the heat
transfer efficiency and it starts by deducting
the char energy (all of it, not just some
recoverable portion). You are calling the
heat transfer efficiency the cooking
efficiency. That is the root of the problem.
They are different when the stove produces a
solid residue containing unreleased energy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL5’: I have no idea why you are claiming
that I am “<i>calling the heat transfer efficiency the
cooking efficiency”. </i>If you would leave all of
the exchange instead of cherry-picking it, our audience
would see that In my sentence labeled “RWL1” above,
where I have “<i>cooking efficiency metric number” </i> in
quotes, I did so because your immediately preceding
sentence (from the 4th) was "</b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">You
want to increase the cooking efficiency metric number
by deducting the energy content of the recovered char
energy, is that correct?</span></i><i><span
style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">”
</span></i><b>So you use a term “improperly", then
accuse me of its improper usage, even though I had it in
quotes. The “<i>root of the problem” </i>(your term,
not mine) is your unwillingness to give char the credit
it needs in the only equation around for setting tier
levels.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>Energy that is in the
char was NOT available to go into the cookpot. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
is why it is deducted when calculating the heat
transfer efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL6’: And it is this <i>“heat
transfer efficiency”</i> quantity that is being used
in the setting of the tier levels. So why are we
arguing? The quantity you insist is the only one that
is important is already being obtained and reported.
The issue is tiers - and you are not addressing that
topic.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>It HAS to
be subtracted to get a valid efficiency when
you are running different tests with
relatively arbitrary and unintentional amounts
of char being produced.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
is correct, if you want to calculate the heat
transfer efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL7’: Yes I want to calculate that efficiency -
because it is the one used for setting tiers. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b> Is the problem that you object to tiers?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>You are the only
person I have heard say this is improper.
Your view has been dismissed by dozens of
others - especially in “official”polling.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Obviously
you are not in all conversations on the
matter. You are in no position to conduct an
‘official poll’. Science does not operate on
‘official polls’ of people whether or not they
are informed on the subject. In fact, opinion
counts for little in a mathematical
calculation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span>[<b>RWL8’: All four of these sentences are off-base.
1): I never said I was in “all” conversations; I
reported what was said to me at ETHOS., 2) Official
polls have been conducted (and you have lost by votes of
roughly 30:1); I didn’t conduct these or claim to have
done so; 3) Agreed that science doesn’t operate with
polls, but ISO groups do, because one person in the group
can be holding up progress; 4) You have agreed a few
lines up that the equation in question (used to establish
tiers) is OK - so why are you raising an issue of
opinions?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>> </b></span><span
class="apple-converted-space"><b> </b></span><b>I
think the “denominator equation” formula
undervalues (not overvalues) the energy in the
char. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
equation does not report the cooking
efficiency, nor the energy in the char nor its
fraction of the original energy. It is an
error to use it for anything. It has no
standard name because it is not accepted as a
standard calculation save as a rough guide to
the heat transfer efficiency, which I remind
you was the original intention of the authors
of the VITA test. The approach was used in a
much more refined form in the BUCT paper of 1
year ago. When it was pointed out on this list
that the calculation of the relative fuel
consumption was in error because of this, one
of the authors, Kirk Smith, made a comment on
this group that the error would be corrected
‘if the paper was published’. In fact the
paper was already published. The error is to
think that the relative heat transfer
efficiencies of two stoves is the same as the
relative fuel consumptions. This error is
common to the WBT (all versions) the CCT and
the KPT. (With the KPT it is only considered
in certain circumstances so there is a caveat
there – the KPT sometimes gives the correct
answer.)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL9’: You continue to make no sense. First
you say (above) : <i>“</i></b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
is correct, if you want to calculate the heat transfer
efficiency.</span></i><i><span
style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">”</span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Then you turn around and say (second
sentence above) </b><i>“It is an error to use it for
anything.”</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>If you give a cite to the “<i>BUCT paper of 1 year
ago”, </i>I’ll read it.<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span>Despite
your inferences, I think we have already established that
Kirk Smith is OK with this equation - and certainly the
Berkeley Air Monitoring Group (BAMG) is.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>It </b>says the
inefficiency is larger than it is.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
formula doesn’t calculate the inefficiency of
anything.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL10’: In my world (I have been primarily
involved in energy matters since 1973), inefficiency is
the complement of efficiency: i = 1-e.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>> I accept the formula
only because the tier structure is based on
its use. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">You
are correct that the tier structure (which has
its own additional defects) is based on the
WBT 4.1.2. which miscalculates the cooking
efficiency. I invite you and everyone else on
this list to obtain one of the (at least)
three versions of the WBT 4.1.2 and run a set
of measurements through it to get the ‘thermal
efficiency’. Then run the same set of
measurements through v 4.2.3 and see what the
answer is. Be amazed. To get the real answer,
delete the contents of the ‘char’ cell and set
the char catching container to zero. Compare
that with the other results. Be shocked.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL11’: Again, you put the effort off onto the
reader. Why don’t you just show the results? Some of us
have other things to do than run around looking for “<i>three
versions of the WBT 4.1.2.”. </i>You are correct that I
will be “<i>amazed/shocked”</i> if anything related to
charcoal and the tier system is different in any of these
procedures. So please enlighten us with your
demonstration.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>I would have been
happier with a tier structure based on overall
efficiency, but I know that is impractical
- especially at this late date.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Interesting.
So getting the correct answer is not
important, expediency is? How long would you
be willing to wait under normal circumstances?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL12’: I am misusing my time in this endless
exchange because the correct answer IS important. I have
no idea what you are driving at in the last sentence.
Your wasting everyone’s time claiming that charcoal is
being mishandled and the right answer is to drop char
computations when placing a stove into tier structure
does not seem “<i>normal</i>” to me (reminding you and
this readership that you are routinely out-voted by 30:1
(as you have yourself also implied a few messages back)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">>>This
deduction raises the reported fuel efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>[RWL: For small
amounts of char it makes the
reported efficiency more accurate. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">No,
it mis-reports the metric that claims to
represent the fuel consumption. The more char
you make, the greater the misrepresentation of
the fuel economy.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL13’: That is your belief on “<i>mis-reports/misrepresentation”</i>.
The rest of the world seems to believe the CDF/WBT is the
best/only equation around - especially for establishing
tiers. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>And I support the tier structure as
being important at this early point in (possibly) moving
to standards. Please tell us how you feel about tiers.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>It undervalues the
overall (more than heat transfer)
efficiency of stoves that are trying to make
char.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">You
are correct on this point insofar as the
formula does indeed calculate the heat
transfer efficiency (or a reasonable proxy of
it). I am not cure why you have contradicted
your earlier points above.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL14’: I see no contradiction. Perhaps you are
not reading closely enough. I presume “cure” should
be “sure” - but maybe there is something else possible
here. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>Please expand on “reasonable proxy”.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>The great point here is that we are in
agreement on what the CDF is doing. I did not expect this
sentence.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">>>Are
you OK with that as the result?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>[RWL: Marginally. Only
in the tier heat rating sense.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">So
having the wrong answer is not an issue as
long as the heat transfer efficiency tiers are
not changed? Did you ever buy a product based
on the heat transfer efficiency?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL15’: Of course getting a wrong answer is an
issue. That is why I am willing to argue with you (and
will continue to do so). Your view oj the unimportance of
char needs to be fought. Yes - I have bought many
products on the basis of heat transfer efficiency - thank
god that the EPA has provided those numbers.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">></span><b>Example:
If energy into the boiling water and charcoal
each are one-third, then the sum of all
inefficiencies MUST also be one-third. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
is incorrect. Please read on.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL16’: If my value of 1/3 is incorrect, it
would seem incumbent on someone claiming so to give us
the right answer. Good lord! I do not see a corrected
answer below.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>You argue for a heat
transfer efficiency of 1/3 (dropping all
consideration of the char). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">No,
I argue that the cooking efficiency is 1/3.
Please correct your misunderstanding.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL17’: This exchange, from my perspective, is
about tiers, which are based on this CDF equation. I
see no “<i>misunderstanding”</i> on my part to correct.
And if I have a “m<i>isunderstanding”, </i>it seems
to be widely shared. <i> </i> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I repeat that I see none or very few on
your side of any part of this argument. Since you are
not convincing me, I invite someone else to explain it
better,</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>The “denominator
equation” (used by everyone but yourself as near
as I can determine) says the “heat transfer
efficiency” is (1/3)/(1-1/3) = (1/3) / (2/3) =
1/2. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">First,
virtually no one outside the USA uses this
formula in any official capacity (CDM/Gold
Standard excepted) , and within the USA it is
shunned for regulatory purposes by the EPA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>RWL18’: I ask for a citation for this <i>“shunned”
</i>statement<i> </i>. John Mitchell and Jim Jetter
(both of EPA) strongly support this CDF equation - as
well as everyone else I have queried.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Second,
that is how to calculate the heat transfer
efficiency, not the cooking efficiency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL19’: I have found nothing in the literature
on the WBT (I again recommend 4 cites by Jim Jetter
that a I gave a week or so ago), to say the equation in
question should be called a “cooking efficiency”. I see
no reason to start calling the CDF equation in question
a “cooking” equation - and again note that you have
earlier called this equation a heat transfer efficiency
equation. Your <i>“cooking efficiency”</i> equation is
already being used and reported. It would help this
dialog a lot if you would explain how your preference on
reporting can help with tiers.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>I can live with this,
but I also think it important to say that the
inefficiency is NOT also 1/2. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The
formula does not calculate an inefficiency, it
calculates the heat transfer efficiency. The
heat transfer efficiency is not useful for
calculating fuel savings.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL20’: In the EE world I have inhabited for
quite a few decades, efficiencies are the ONLY way “<i>for calculating
fuel savings”. </i>I hope you can show us a method
for avoiding that term/quantity.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>The overall efficiency,
when one is trying to produce char, is 1/3 +1/3
= 2/3. This last is clearly NOT the “heat
transfer efficiency”</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Correct.
It is not the heat transfer efficiency. It does
not have a name as you are adding the cooking
efficiency to the % of energy in the original
fuel that was not burned. As I pointed out to
you and Paul, this metric is non-standard and
does not have a name.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL21’: I see no problem with calling
this “2/3” number the “overall efficiency”. I dispute
that this metric is “non-standard”, as it is the ONLY
way to get the inefficiency value (here of magnitude
1/3).</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>but the
overall efficiency should be reported as well if
we are trying to promote more valuable stoves,
and it is not being reported.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">What
do you consider to be the ‘overall efficiency’?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL22’: I think you are not reading carefully
enough. it is 2/3 in this example.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">><b>Now the reverse question
- WHY are YOU so unhappy with the subtraction
in the denominator? </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Because
as applied in the WBT (all versions) it gives a
misleading number which is used to calculate the
relative fuel savings of stoves, comparing them
with a baseline product. It gives the wrong
answer. You indicated above that while the
cooking efficiency is 1/3 and the WBT reports it
to be ½, you are OK with that misrepresentation.
I am not.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span>[<b>RWL23’: You continue to avoid the “why”
question. It is not enough to call it “<i>misleading</i>”
or a “<i>misrepresentation</i>”. A lot of knowledgeable
people have concluded that tiers are appropriate at this
time for improved stoves and this CDF equation is the
right/only one. You offer no alternative.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>Is it your opinion that
this char production was an inefficiency? </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In
standard terms char production is reported as a
% of the dry fuel input. Where it is not a
desired product, it is a mechanical loss.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL24’: Now we have gotten to the bottom of the
issue. For you, char is NOT a “<i>desired product”. </i> Pity.
But consistent with every other comment over at least a
decade on the relationships between you and charcoal. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I see no reason to call char a “mechanical
loss” - neither mechanical nor loss.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>You have expressed great
unhappiness with the “denominator equation”, but
I don’t recall ever seeing a reason. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Then
you have not been reading my posts.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL25’ : Obviously I have been reading your
posts - primarily to protect char-making. I contend
that you have again not given a reason other than your
(much-disputed) put down on char.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>The purpose of including
a char term in the denominator is NOT to say
anything about char - it is to get at the
POTENTIAL heat transfer efficiency. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">There
is no such metric as the ‘potential heat
transfer efficiency’ except to say that it is
always 100%, until the stove is tested.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL26’: Yup - 100% IS possible - as soon as we
find a way to eliminate losses via conduction, radiation,
and convection (and char-making). Are you sure you want
to hang your full argument on dismissing the CDF (your
term - see above) based on this 100% absurdity.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>>To repeat - too many
will think that char-making stoves are much less
efficient than they really are.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">When
it comes to fuel efficiency, char making stoves
are usually much less fuel-efficient than stoves
that burn all the char. As usual, you are
looking for some way to over-report the fuel
efficiency by pretending the char is unburned
‘fuel’.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL27’: First sentence not true (relative to “<i>much
less”);</i> many of the EPA tests are showing BOTH a
fuel saving and char production. You were in such
a discussion yesterday with Paul Anderson.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>Re second sentence, I have been
consistently saying that the CDF under-reports. If I had
my way I would base tiers on the “Overall” (i.e.
2/3 efficiency value). </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I see very few people agreeing with you that
the CDF <i>“over-reports</i>” anything. I think you are
again here repeating that char “<i>is not a desired
product”.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Then,
you plan to bury the char in the ground (proving
it was not ‘fuel’ after all) to accomplish what
others call ‘sequestering carbon’.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL28’: I think I have been clear on that -
as means of both helping stove users and of being an
important start at much larger CDR (carbon dioxide
removal) - what I consider to be the world’s #1 problem.
Thanks for bringing </b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <i>‘sequestering
carbon’</i> </span><b>into the dialog. But you are
missing the soil benefits - of huge benefit to
all potential char-making stove users.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Using
your example above:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Cooking
efficiency: 1/3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Char
energy retention, based on the recoverable mass
of the solid residue: 1/3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Heat
transfer efficiency: 2/3</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span>[<b>RWL29’: What would you call the CDF
equation result of 1/2? </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b> Also, I see no way that your number “2/3”
can be called a heat transfer efficiency. In the future,
much of this valued (for soil improvement purposes) char
will be going into the ground. Why should it be
called “heat transfer efficiency? (I used the term heat
transfer efficiency [1/2] because it is NOT the value of
2/3 (which you are [surprisingly] using).</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Two
stoves both have a cooking efficiency of 1/3.
One of them makes some measurable amount of
char. Applying the WBT formula raises the<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>reported<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>cooking
efficiency (not the actual cooking efficiency).
The actual cooking efficiency shows that both
stoves require exactly same amount of raw fuel
to cook. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL30’: I disagree with your second sentence.
The WBT formula does NOT raise <i>“the reported cooking
efficiency”.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b><i>
</i></b></span><b>You continue to avoid the concept of
tiers - which can’t possibly be developed with anything
related to your term “cooking efficiency”.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Applying
the WBT formula one finds that the char-making
stove </span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">disclaimed</span></span><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">to
require less fuel to complete the cooking task.<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> [RWL31’: NO. It says that IF
char (valuable its own right) had not been produced, then
more heat would have been transferred (or more cooking).
This is independent of whether the char amount was small
or large, intentional of unintentional. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>I don’t understand the term “disclaimed”.
Was this supposed to be “is claimed”?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That
claim is false. People are being induced to pay
for a reduction in fuel use on the basis of the
WBT calculation. They are being defrauded with
false claims of fuel saving. I don’t believe you
are ‘OK’ with this situation.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span">
</span><b>[RWL32’: I suggest, with your “<i>don’t believe</i>”,
that you aren’t paying attention to what I am saying. I
repeat for the benefit of you and anyone reading this that
I AM <i>“OK” with this situation.” </i>I thank the
(mostly) volunteers working on every part of this ISO
exercise. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b>
</b></span><b>Aside: In about an hour, I will be
listening in on an announced two hour call on the WG3 work
product (for field testing) - where this same equation
will be discussed and (presumably) endorsed. This is NOT
a topic related only to the WBT.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Ron<br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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