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Dear Pauls and All</div>
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There are lots of examples of energy efficiency tiers in use, the most well known probably bring the Energy Star rating. </div>
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These tiers are created and maintained by consumer groups and industry representatives, often with government participation. What does not happen with then is to put them inside a test method nor a regulatory standard. The main reason for that is they have
to be updated far more frequently than a test method, and the stakeholders and contributors are a very different group of people. </div>
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There is nothing complicated about tracking energy streams and expressing ýthem as 'efficiencies'. The char-deducted formula not only misrepresents the fuel consumption it also mis-reports the energy fraction of the fuel fed that emerges as char. </div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<div class="">Paul and list</div>
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<div class="">1. These are good thoughts, but I think we already have, and are reporting, the data for the main stove virtues. Everything is cookstove related, not heating - by intention, as cooking is a hard enough part by itself.</div>
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<div class="">2. The sticking point is definitely the “char-deducting formula” - but it is sticky because it is used to establish the “efficiency tier structure” - which some claim gives too much credit for char-production. There seems to be agreement that
Tiers, not a strict standard, is the appropriate approach for ISO consideration (although quite unusual)</div>
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<div class="">3. I think I have found a new justification, that will allow the same tiers to be retained.</div>
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<div class="">4. My “discovery" (coming from a discussion with Jessica Tryner today) is that LCA=Life Cycle Analysis faces this multiple virtue and allocation problem regularly (and label it a difficult but solvable problem). I shall try to put something
together by tomorrow - but hope anyone in both the stove and LCA businesses will also jump in - on the list or privately (I am not an LCA expert and need others to talk to.).</div>
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<div class="">5. I like your printer/copier example a lot - it would interesting to see if anything like tiers exist. Anyone have similar examples? (biogas and ethanol are similar in having multiple virtues)</div>
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<div class="">Ron </div>
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<div class="">On Feb 7, 2017, at 2:33 PM, Paul Medwell <<a href="mailto:paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au" class="">paul.medwell@adelaide.edu.au</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Hi
all,</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">I
am fairly new to this discussion that is taking place in multiple fora regarding the char-deducting formula. I am also heavily time-constrained and not able to participate as much as I want. Nevertheless, I would like to try and provide some input.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">It
seems that everyone in in agreement that stoves can have co-benefits in addition to cooking. Producing char and providing space heating are two such benefits.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Two
analogies that might help put this issue in context…</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">1)
Consider a multi-function printer -- one that is a combined printer/scanner/photocopier. It does lots of things. Each user will place a different emphasis on the relative importance of each feature. For example, ‘Person A’ might want a very high resolution
scanner, but not really care about the print quality and never use the photocopier. ‘Person B’ only wants to use it as a printer (after all, that is what it is called). How would reporting a single metric on the overall performance help these two people choose?
It seems much more meaningful to report the quality of each feature separately. Trying to over-simplify the reporting of the various features into a single value causes it all to lose meaning.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">If
a stove does multiple things (cook, produce char, space heating) then report each performance metric separately.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">2)
Consider the engine in my car.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">•
I put gasoline in the tank [fuel energy in…what I put in]</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">•
I get kinetic energy from the drive shaft [useful energy out…what I want out]</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">•
The exhaust will contain some CO and unburned hydrocarbons, UHC [residual fuel energy…something I could use]</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">•
A lot of heat is produced [rejected heat…something I lose]</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">I
could capture the CO and UHC from the exhaust and burn them in a barbeque. Should the fuel energy that they contain be subtracted from the ‘fuel energy in’?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Cheers,</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Paul</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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On 7/02/2017 5:27 AM, Philip Lloyd wrote:<br class="">
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ron</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">I would like you to know that Crispin’s position on the char-deducting formula is supported by most of those working on ISO TC 285. He is definitely not a lone voice
crying in the wilderness.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">There is absolutely no doubt that the formula is wrong, if you are trying to talk cookstove energy efficiency. Thermodynamics defines energy efficiency in terms of useful
energy delivered/ energy input, and that is the gross energy input, not some net figure. In the case of cooking, it is the energy used in cooking divided by the energy in the raw fuel fed to provide the cooking heat. If the solid stream remaining at the end
of a cooking sequence still has some components such as char that could provide additional energy, then if they can be put back in the stove for use in a later cooking sequence, there is no impact on the cooking efficiency, but if they are removed from the
cooking system then they represent a loss and the cooking efficiency is reduced relative to what it would be if all the fuel fed were reduced to ash. That’s the science, and all arguments to the contrary fail.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">An analogy may make this clearer. Some cookstoves also provide useful space heating. In this case the efficiency of use of fuel for cooking and heating is (useful
heat provided for cooking + useful heat released for space heating)/energy in fuel fed. The efficiency for cooking remains useful heat provided for cooking/energy in fuel fed, and the efficiency for space heating is useful heat released for space heating/energy
in fuel fed, and the two efficiencies are additive as they should be – and which they wouldn’t be if the CDF were correct.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please accept that the cdf is DEAD.</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Prof Philip Lloyd</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height:17.1200008392334px; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Energy Institute, CPUT</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">SARETEC, Sachs Circle</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bellville</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Tel 021 959 4323</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">Cell 083 441 5247</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125)">PA Nadia 021 959 4330</span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ronal W. Larson<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 6, 2017 5:34 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Differences in stove testing ---- was Re: ETHOS 2017 agenda and logistics</span></div>
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List and Crispin</div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The following in response to Crispin’s message of last night (delayed in part by the Super Bowl - sheesh - what an ending!)</div>
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On Feb 5, 2017, at 6:28 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Ron</span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">“…</span></b>I went a lot further reporting on the test experts I talked to at ETHOS - NONE of whom agreed with Crispin on the topic of this reply - the way to handle
char in reporting efficiencies. </div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That provides a comment on the poor understanding of the principles of engineering and performance rating amount those who you contacted at ETHOS. It is sad that those how claim to lead are
so at sea when it comes to making such simple determinations. Perhaps you are not aware that the ‘char-deducted formula’ is unique in the world when reporting the % of fuel energy delivered as ‘work’.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL1’: Re sentences #1 and #2 - it is truly amazing that ALL of the experts on this topic are incorrect - and only you have the true knowledge. It reminds
me of the way the “97%” of climate change experts are dismissed by deniers.</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">Re sentence #3 - you are correct - I am “<i class="">unaware</i>” of the uniqueness - because it is not true. As one example, the CSI methodology
used in the Philippines uses it. The CSU methodology does (incidentally, Jessica Tryner’s doctoral thesis includes this CDF = “<i class="">char-deducting formula</i>” - and is terrific). </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I hope readers will note that below there is NO mention of how Crispin would handle the situation of most interest to those of us working
with TLUDs - using something other than the CDF for tier placement purposes. I say the CDF undervalues char when looking at tiers - but I can live with it. Crispin is silent on how to merge char making and tiers - repeat TIERS, not the CDF alone.</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">The CDF is not different in principle than subtracting the energy in unused wood (or do you think that should not be allowed also?)</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Char making is not ‘work’ when it comes to cooking energy delivered.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL2’: We are getting off topic here, but since it takes energy to make char (about double that retained in the char), www could argue about whether this
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>John Mitchell supports the existing “denominator equation” - as does EVERYBODY I talked to at the ETHOS conference. </div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ditto – if true, it is significant that the ETHOS participants you discussed this with do not follow this list, read about the problems and understand the implications, or consider that scientific
norms should apply to stove testing.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL3’: Right, because you say so, we should disregard all the other expert statements (I mean official in the TAG discussions - not on this list or at
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I can assure you the experts at ETHOS have been reading this list. EVERY one I talked to was fully aware of the controversy. You underestimate
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><b class="">[RWL1: I am agreeing with decades of usage to make the “<i class="">cooking efficiency metric number"</i><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>more accurate. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The cooking efficiency is the ratio of cooking energy to the energy in the fuel fed into the stove. Comparing the rating of two stoves calculated on that basis gives a direct comparison of
the fuel consumption to accomplish a task. More on that below.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL4’: You would be correct if that was the accepted method of comparing stoves. The accepted method, when char was trivial, is/has been to make the CDF
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<b class="">>The ONLY accurate denominator is one with the char being subtracted - as the ratio is the heat into the cook pot divided by the total energy that COULD BE available for that measure of energy into the cookpot. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That is a description of the heat transfer efficiency. It is unfortunate you are not learning from this interchange. I have explained in detail how to calculate the heat transfer efficiency
and it starts by deducting the char energy (all of it, not just some recoverable portion). You are calling the heat transfer efficiency the cooking efficiency. That is the root of the problem. They are different when the stove produces a solid residue containing
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL5’: I have no idea why you are claiming that I am “<i class="">calling the heat transfer efficiency the cooking efficiency”. </i>If you would leave
all of the exchange instead of cherry-picking it, our audience would see that In my sentence labeled “RWL1” above, where I have “<i class="">cooking efficiency metric number”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i> in quotes, I did so because your
immediately preceding sentence (from the 4th) was "</b><i class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">You want to increase the cooking efficiency metric number by deducting the energy content of the recovered char energy,
is that correct?</span></i><i class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11.5pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">” </span></i><b class="">So you use a term “improperly", then accuse me of its improper usage, even though I had it in quotes. The “<i class="">root
of the problem” </i>(your term, not mine) is your unwillingness to give char the credit it needs in the only equation around for setting tier levels.</b></div>
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<b class="">>Energy that is in the char was NOT available to go into the cookpot. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That is why it is deducted when calculating the heat transfer efficiency.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL6’: And it is this <i class="">“heat transfer efficiency”</i> quantity that is being used in the setting of the tier levels. So why are we arguing?
The quantity you insist is the only one that is important is already being obtained and reported. The issue is tiers - and you are not addressing that topic.</b></div>
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<b class="">>It HAS to be subtracted to get a valid efficiency when you are running different tests with relatively arbitrary and unintentional amounts of char being produced.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That is correct, if you want to calculate the heat transfer efficiency.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL7’: Yes I want to calculate that efficiency - because it is the one used for setting tiers. </b></div>
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<b class="">>You are the only person I have heard say this is improper. Your view has been dismissed by dozens of others - especially in “official”polling.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Obviously you are not in all conversations on the matter. You are in no position to conduct an ‘official poll’. Science does not operate on ‘official polls’ of people whether or not they
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>[<b class="">RWL8’: All four of these sentences are off-base. 1): I never said I was in “all” conversations; I reported what was said to me at ETHOS., 2) Official
polls have been conducted (and you have lost by votes of roughly 30:1); I didn’t conduct these or claim to have done so; 3) Agreed that science doesn’t operate with polls, but ISO groups do, because one person in the group can be holding up progress; 4)
You have agreed a few lines up that the equation in question (used to establish tiers) is OK - so why are you raising an issue of opinions?</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class="">> </b></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><b class=""> </b></span><b class="">I think the “denominator equation” formula undervalues (not overvalues) the energy in the char. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The equation does not report the cooking efficiency, nor the energy in the char nor its fraction of the original energy. It is an error to use it for anything. It has no standard name because
it is not accepted as a standard calculation save as a rough guide to the heat transfer efficiency, which I remind you was the original intention of the authors of the VITA test. The approach was used in a much more refined form in the BUCT paper of 1 year
ago. When it was pointed out on this list that the calculation of the relative fuel consumption was in error because of this, one of the authors, Kirk Smith, made a comment on this group that the error would be corrected ‘if the paper was published’. In fact
the paper was already published. The error is to think that the relative heat transfer efficiencies of two stoves is the same as the relative fuel consumptions. This error is common to the WBT (all versions) the CCT and the KPT. (With the KPT it is only considered
in certain circumstances so there is a caveat there – the KPT sometimes gives the correct answer.)</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL9’: You continue to make no sense. First you say (above) : <i class="">“</i></b><i class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That
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<b class="">Then you turn around and say (second sentence above) </b><i class="">“It is an error to use it for anything.”</i></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">If you give a cite to the “<i class="">BUCT paper of 1 year ago”, </i>I’ll read it.<span class="apple-tab-span"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Despite
your inferences, I think we have already established that Kirk Smith is OK with this equation - and certainly the Berkeley Air Monitoring Group (BAMG) is.</b></div>
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<b class="">>It<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>says the inefficiency is larger than it is.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The formula doesn’t calculate the inefficiency of anything.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL10’: In my world (I have been primarily involved in energy matters since 1973), inefficiency is the complement of efficiency: i = 1-e.</b></div>
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<b class="">> I accept the formula only because the tier structure is based on its use. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">You are correct that the tier structure (which has its own additional defects) is based on the WBT 4.1.2. which miscalculates the cooking efficiency. I invite you and everyone else on this
list to obtain one of the (at least) three versions of the WBT 4.1.2 and run a set of measurements through it to get the ‘thermal efficiency’. Then run the same set of measurements through v 4.2.3 and see what the answer is. Be amazed. To get the real answer,
delete the contents of the ‘char’ cell and set the char catching container to zero. Compare that with the other results. Be shocked.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL11’: Again, you put the effort off onto the reader. Why don’t you just show the results? Some of us have other things to do than run around looking
for “<i class="">three versions of the WBT 4.1.2.”. </i>You are correct that I will be “<i class="">amazed/shocked”</i> if anything related to charcoal and the tier system is different in any of these procedures. So please enlighten us with your demonstration.</b></div>
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<b class="">>I would have been happier with a tier structure based on overall efficiency, but I know that is impractical - especially at this late date.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Interesting. So getting the correct answer is not important, expediency is? How long would you be willing to wait under normal circumstances?</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL12’: I am misusing my time in this endless exchange because the correct answer IS important. I have no idea what you are driving at in the last sentence.
Your wasting everyone’s time claiming that charcoal is being mishandled and the right answer is to drop char computations when placing a stove into tier structure does not seem “<i class="">normal</i>” to me (reminding you and this readership that you are
routinely out-voted by 30:1 (as you have yourself also implied a few messages back)</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>>This deduction raises the reported fuel efficiency.</span></div>
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<b class="">>[RWL: For small amounts of char it makes the reported efficiency more accurate. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No, it mis-reports the metric that claims to represent the fuel consumption. The more char you make, the greater the misrepresentation of the fuel economy.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL13’: That is your belief on “<i class="">mis-reports/misrepresentation”</i>. The rest of the world seems to believe the CDF/WBT is the best/only equation
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">And I support the tier structure as being important at this early point in (possibly) moving to standards. Please tell us how you feel about
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<b class="">>It undervalues the overall (more than heat transfer) efficiency of stoves that are trying to make char.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">You are correct on this point insofar as the formula does indeed calculate the heat transfer efficiency (or a reasonable proxy of it). I am not cure why you have contradicted your earlier
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL14’: I see no contradiction. Perhaps you are not reading closely enough. I presume “cure” should be “sure” - but maybe there is something else possible
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">The great point here is that we are in agreement on what the CDF is doing. I did not expect this sentence.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>>Are you OK with that as the result?</span></div>
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<b class="">[RWL: Marginally. Only in the tier heat rating sense.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">So having the wrong answer is not an issue as long as the heat transfer efficiency tiers are not changed? Did you ever buy a product based on the heat transfer efficiency?</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL15’: Of course getting a wrong answer is an issue. That is why I am willing to argue with you (and will continue to do so). Your view oj the unimportance
of char needs to be fought. Yes - I have bought many products on the basis of heat transfer efficiency - thank god that the EPA has provided those numbers.</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span">></span><b class="">Example: If energy into the boiling water and charcoal each are one-third, then the sum of all inefficiencies MUST also be one-third. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That is incorrect. Please read on.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL16’: If my value of 1/3 is incorrect, it would seem incumbent on someone claiming so to give us the right answer. Good lord! I do not see a corrected
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<b class="">>You argue for a heat transfer efficiency of 1/3 (dropping all consideration of the char). </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">No, I argue that the cooking efficiency is 1/3. Please correct your misunderstanding.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL17’: This exchange, from my perspective, is about tiers, which are based on this CDF equation. I see no “<i class="">misunderstanding”</i> on my part
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I repeat that I see none or very few on your side of any part of this argument. Since you are not convincing me, I invite someone else to
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<b class="">>The “denominator equation” (used by everyone but yourself as near as I can determine) says the “heat transfer efficiency” is (1/3)/(1-1/3) = (1/3) / (2/3) = 1/2. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">First, virtually no one outside the USA uses this formula in any official capacity (CDM/Gold Standard excepted) , and within the USA it is shunned for regulatory purposes by the EPA.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">RWL18’: I ask for a citation for this <i class="">“shunned”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>statement<i class=""> </i>. John Mitchell and
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Second, that is how to calculate the heat transfer efficiency, not the cooking efficiency.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL19’: I have found nothing in the literature on the WBT (I again recommend 4 cites by Jim Jetter that a I gave a week or so ago), to say the equation
in question should be called a “cooking efficiency”. I see no reason to start calling the CDF equation in question a “cooking” equation - and again note that you have earlier called this equation a heat transfer efficiency equation. Your <i class="">“cooking
efficiency”</i> equation is already being used and reported. It would help this dialog a lot if you would explain how your preference on reporting can help with tiers.</b></div>
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<b class="">>I can live with this, but I also think it important to say that the inefficiency is NOT also 1/2. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The formula does not calculate an inefficiency, it calculates the heat transfer efficiency. The heat transfer efficiency is not useful for calculating fuel savings.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL20’: In the EE world I have inhabited for quite a few decades, efficiencies are the ONLY way “<i class="">for calculating fuel savings”. </i>I hope
you can show us a method for avoiding that term/quantity.</b></div>
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<b class="">>The overall efficiency, when one is trying to produce char, is 1/3 +1/3 = 2/3. This last is clearly NOT the “heat transfer efficiency”</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Correct. It is not the heat transfer efficiency. It does not have a name as you are adding the cooking efficiency to the % of energy in the original fuel that was not burned. As I pointed
out to you and Paul, this metric is non-standard and does not have a name.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL21’: I see no problem with calling this “2/3” number the “overall efficiency”. I dispute that this metric is “non-standard”, as it is the ONLY way
to get the inefficiency value (here of magnitude 1/3).</b></div>
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<b class="">>but the overall efficiency should be reported as well if we are trying to promote more valuable stoves, and it is not being reported.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">What do you consider to be the ‘overall efficiency’?</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL22’: I think you are not reading carefully enough. it is 2/3 in this example.</b></div>
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><b class="">Now the reverse question - WHY are YOU so unhappy with the subtraction in the denominator? </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Because as applied in the WBT (all versions) it gives a misleading number which is used to calculate the relative fuel savings of stoves, comparing them with a baseline product. It gives
the wrong answer. You indicated above that while the cooking efficiency is 1/3 and the WBT reports it to be ½, you are OK with that misrepresentation. I am not.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>[<b class="">RWL23’: You continue to avoid the “why” question. It is not enough to call it “<i class="">misleading</i>” or a “<i class="">misrepresentation</i>”. A
lot of knowledgeable people have concluded that tiers are appropriate at this time for improved stoves and this CDF equation is the right/only one. You offer no alternative.</b></div>
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<b class="">>Is it your opinion that this char production was an inefficiency? </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In standard terms char production is reported as a % of the dry fuel input. Where it is not a desired product, it is a mechanical loss.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL24’: Now we have gotten to the bottom of the issue. For you, char is NOT a “<i class="">desired product”. </i> Pity. But consistent with every
other comment over at least a decade on the relationships between you and charcoal. </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I see no reason to call char a “mechanical loss” - neither mechanical nor loss.</b></div>
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<b class="">>You have expressed great unhappiness with the “denominator equation”, but I don’t recall ever seeing a reason. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Then you have not been reading my posts.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL25’ : Obviously I have been reading your posts - primarily to protect char-making. I contend that you have again not given a reason other than your
(much-disputed) put down on char.</b></div>
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<b class="">>The purpose of including a char term in the denominator is NOT to say anything about char - it is to get at the POTENTIAL heat transfer efficiency. </b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">There is no such metric as the ‘potential heat transfer efficiency’ except to say that it is always 100%, until the stove is tested.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL26’: Yup - 100% IS possible - as soon as we find a way to eliminate losses via conduction, radiation, and convection (and char-making). Are you sure
you want to hang your full argument on dismissing the CDF (your term - see above) based on this 100% absurdity.</b></div>
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<b class="">>To repeat - too many will think that char-making stoves are much less efficient than they really are.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When it comes to fuel efficiency, char making stoves are usually much less fuel-efficient than stoves that burn all the char. As usual, you are looking for some way to over-report the fuel
efficiency by pretending the char is unburned ‘fuel’.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL27’: First sentence not true (relative to “<i class="">much less”);</i> many of the EPA tests are showing BOTH a fuel saving and char production. You
were in such a discussion yesterday with Paul Anderson.</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">Re second sentence, I have been consistently saying that the CDF under-reports. If I had my way I would base tiers on the “Overall” (i.e.
2/3 efficiency value). </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I see very few people agreeing with you that the CDF <i class="">“over-reports</i>” anything. I think you are again here repeating that char “<i class="">is
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Then, you plan to bury the char in the ground (proving it was not ‘fuel’ after all) to accomplish what others call ‘sequestering carbon’.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL28’: I think I have been clear on that - as means of both helping stove users and of being an important start at much larger CDR (carbon dioxide removal)
- what I consider to be the world’s #1 problem. Thanks for bringing </b><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <i class="">‘sequestering carbon’</i> </span><b class="">into the dialog. But you are missing the soil benefits
- of huge benefit to all potential char-making stove users.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cooking efficiency: 1/3</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Char energy retention, based on the recoverable mass of the solid residue: 1/3</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Heat transfer efficiency: 2/3</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>[<b class="">RWL29’: What would you call the CDF equation result of 1/2? </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class=""> Also, I see no way that your number “2/3” can be called a heat transfer efficiency. In the future, much of this valued (for soil improvement
purposes) char will be going into the ground. Why should it be called “heat transfer efficiency? (I used the term heat transfer efficiency [1/2] because it is NOT the value of 2/3 (which you are [surprisingly] using).</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Two stoves both have a cooking efficiency of 1/3. One of them makes some measurable amount of char. Applying the WBT formula raises the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>reported<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>cooking
efficiency (not the actual cooking efficiency). The actual cooking efficiency shows that both stoves require exactly same amount of raw fuel to cook.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL30’: I disagree with your second sentence. The WBT formula does NOT raise <i class="">“the reported cooking efficiency”.</i></b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""><i class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></b></span><b class="">You continue to avoid the concept of tiers - which can’t possibly be developed with anything related to your term “cooking efficiency”.</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Applying the WBT formula one finds that the char-making stove </span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11.5pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">disclaimed</span></span><span class="apple-converted-space"><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">to
require less fuel to complete the cooking task.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<b class=""> [RWL31’: NO. It says that IF char (valuable its own right) had not been produced, then more heat would have been transferred (or more cooking). This is independent of whether the char amount was small or large, intentional of unintentional. </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I don’t understand the term “disclaimed”. Was this supposed to be “is claimed”?</b></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That claim is false. People are being induced to pay for a reduction in fuel use on the basis of the WBT calculation. They are being defrauded with false claims of fuel saving. I don’t believe
you are ‘OK’ with this situation.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL32’: I suggest, with your “<i class="">don’t believe</i>”, that you aren’t paying attention to what I am saying. I repeat for the benefit of you and anyone
reading this that I AM <i class="">“OK” with this situation.” <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>I thank the (mostly) volunteers working on every part of this ISO exercise. </b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">Aside: In about an hour, I will be listening in on an announced two hour call on the WG3 work product (for field testing) - where this same
equation will be discussed and (presumably) endorsed. This is NOT a topic related only to the WBT.</b></div>
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<b class="">Ron<br class="">
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Crispin</span></div>
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