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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hello Tom,<br>
<br>
I am happy to see the question is being discussed in the WG, and
was discussed at ETHOS.<br>
I am unsure if what you are mentioning has been written on this
list, so thanks for that new information, it is helpful.<br>
<br>
<span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">"A
recent study in Germany was cited where WBT tests were different
from different labs."<br>
It's great to hear. Is it possible to have the link to this
study?<br>
</span><br>
<span style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">"Who on
this list are participants in the working groups?"</span><br>
I do not understand your question. Are you asking me if I know if
among the 900+ participants to the List, there are participants in
the working groups, or are you telling me that on this List, there
are no participants to the working group?<br>
My assumption was that there was a lot of the WG participants on
this List. I have been told that my messages on the List were
read. I am sure they reach the WG. I know my messages are read by
the GACC people.<br>
Now, the people working in the WG are not necessarily the only
people I wanted to discuss to. I wanted to discuss with the List
members, because I believe a lot are working with or have worked
with the WBT, and the WBT as been discussed here a lot in the
past, and that now we have new elements and make progress in the
discussion.<br>
Since there are supporters of the WBT who expressed on this List,
I thought it made sense to ask for their point of view here.<br>
<br>
Your message subject was: "SPAM: Re: Advocacy action: ask the GACC
to stop promoting the WBT". Was it you who named it like this or
was it your webmail which sees my messages as spam?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/14/17 20:34, Tom Miles wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Xavier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
donors and participants in GACC who I talked with at ETHOS
regard the WBT as a useful tool for stove development but
question its use for comparing stove performance in use. A
recent study in Germany was cited where WBT tests were
different from different labs. There was also a lot of
discussion from the GACC working group leaders and
participants about the need for contextual evaluation. A
detailed approach to contextual evaluation was presented by
GIZ which refleted much of what has been discussed here. It
was also stated in the WG4 summary that options and
exceptions are being delineated. What’s missing here is a
clear understanding of what is actually being discussed
about WBT, where, and for what purpose. The fears and
concerns of negative impacts from WBT tests were clearly
stated by various speaker. It was also discussed that Tiers
may not necessarily be relevant to the needs of a community.
You might select a lower tier stove to meet those needs.
Who on this list are participants in the working groups? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tom <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SPAM: Re: [Stoves] Advocacy action: ask
the GACC to stop promoting the WBT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
Frank,<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i>"the
WBT is only an outline for tests that need be done"</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Why
do an outline when we can do (good) tests instead?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Additionally
to these 3 problems you mentioned, you have to add the other
ones I quoted previously, some mentioned in Fabio and
Francesco's study. See below.<br>
It's not looking too good for me. Sometimes getting something
new is much faster and surer than fixing something broken.<br>
I know that a lot of effort from many people went into
"fixing" the WBT. But maybe it is beyond fixing. Maybe these
are sunk costs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">the WBT is not contextual, as Crispin
highlighted many times<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">several WBT metrics are invalid, as Crispin
highlighted many times<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">there are big thermodynamic uncertainties (viz.
variable steam production and boiling point determination)<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">there are questions about the rationale of some
calculations, questions raised by Zhang et al.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We
have been talking about the WBT for a few weeks already (not
counting the years prior to that), and all these questions
haven't been answered.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">All,
for more details about these questions, please find the links
to all the studies I mentioned:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l6
level1 lfo2">Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in
experimental analysis for improved and traditional
three–stone fire cookstoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l7
level1 lfo3">Key differences of performance test protocols
for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use
of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto">To
access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy
COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select paper
by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l5
level1 lfo4">Performance testing for monitoring improved
biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household
Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev
2007;11:57–70. <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l8
level1 lfo5">The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo6">Influence of testing parameters on biomass
stove performance and development of an improved testing
protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo7">How many replicate tests are needed to test
cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always
adequate.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo8">Systematic and conceptual errors in standards
and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l9
level1 lfo9">Quality assurance for cookstoves testing
centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l4
level1 lfo10">Key factors of thermal efficiency test
protocols<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo11">Towards a standard for clean solid-fuelled
cookstoves<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves</a><br>
<br>
Looking forward to your comments!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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