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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hello Tom,<br>
<br>
No I am not. And I don't think there is anyone from India,
unfortunately. I was told so in October 2016. I may not be very
representative of the Indian stakeholders, now I live in France.<br>
I have considered joining, I still think about it, but I have
limited time and also my contribution will be very limited, I
cannot discuss the topics in-depth.<br>
<br>
I would be a spectator, or listener, I would be then updated on
the progress, and I could only relay the discussions from the WG
to the List and other stovers, and relay the discussions from the
List to the WG. As well as the questions from the studies I
mentioned, making sure the WG do take them into account.<br>
<br>
But even if I was involved in the WG, even if there was lot of
progress there on the WBT (in fact, I was told about this new
progress already at the end of 2016), I still would like the WBT
questions to be taken into account by the GACC independantly,
hence the initiative and the post on this List and to my list of
contacts.<br>
<br>
I still want, regardless of the outcomes of the ISO TC 285, the
GACC to acknowledge the problem, remove the WBT from the top of
the list of protocols on its website, and stop promoting it for
programmatic purposes like it recently did to the UNHCR. So my
point: I know the WG work on that, but I don't think we should
wait for their (uncertain) conclusions.<br>
<br>
I think there's been some good contributions and progress on the
discussions on this List, plus we have now all in one place the
latest files for the main alternative protocol and method, the HTP
and CSI (to be completed with other protocols and contributions
from this List), we have a list of the WBT issues, we have a list
of the studies about the WBT. Maybe the WG knew about all this way
before, but it seems to be a bit new here. Even Ron was thinking
that Crispin was isolated, didn't realize so many complained about
the WBT.<br>
Anyways I'll try not to be "spamming" too much, sorry if I did!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/14/17 21:20, Tom Miles wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Xavier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I
thought maybe you were a member of WG4. Who is representing
India? I understand there are about 25 participants but less
than that are active. I think I heard that WG1 had about 93
participants with some fraction being active. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I don’t
have a reference for the German study but someone on the
list probably does.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The SPAM
tag was probably picked up by someone’s computer and has
just been carried along with the discussion. I don’t know
who originally named the thread but it would show up in the
archives as the first message. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tom<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p>
<span style="mso-bookmark:_MailEndCompose"></span>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SPAM: Re: [Stoves] SPAM: Re: Advocacy
action: ask the GACC to stop promoting the WBT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello Tom,<br>
<br>
I am happy to see the question is being discussed in the WG,
and was discussed at ETHOS.<br>
I am unsure if what you are mentioning has been written on
this list, so thanks for that new information, it is
helpful.<br>
<br>
<span style="color:windowtext">"A recent study in Germany
was cited where WBT tests were different from different
labs."<br>
It's great to hear. Is it possible to have the link to
this study?<br>
</span><br>
<span style="color:windowtext">"Who on this list are
participants in the working groups?"</span><br>
I do not understand your question. Are you asking me if I
know if among the 900+ participants to the List, there are
participants in the working groups, or are you telling me
that on this List, there are no participants to the working
group?<br>
My assumption was that there was a lot of the WG
participants on this List. I have been told that my messages
on the List were read. I am sure they reach the WG. I know
my messages are read by the GACC people.<br>
Now, the people working in the WG are not necessarily the
only people I wanted to discuss to. I wanted to discuss with
the List members, because I believe a lot are working with
or have worked with the WBT, and the WBT as been discussed
here a lot in the past, and that now we have new elements
and make progress in the discussion.<br>
Since there are supporters of the WBT who expressed on this
List, I thought it made sense to ask for their point of view
here.<br>
<br>
Your message subject was: "SPAM: Re: Advocacy action: ask
the GACC to stop promoting the WBT". Was it you who named it
like this or was it your webmail which sees my messages as
spam?<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/14/17 20:34, Tom Miles wrote:<span
style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Xavier,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
donors and participants in GACC who I talked with at ETHOS
regard the WBT as a useful tool for stove development but
question its use for comparing stove performance in use. A
recent study in Germany was cited where WBT tests were
different from different labs. There was also a lot of
discussion from the GACC working group leaders and
participants about the need for contextual evaluation. A
detailed approach to contextual evaluation was presented
by GIZ which refleted much of what has been discussed
here. It was also stated in the WG4 summary that options
and exceptions are being delineated. What’s missing here
is a clear understanding of what is actually being
discussed about WBT, where, and for what purpose. The
fears and concerns of negative impacts from WBT tests
were clearly stated by various speaker. It was also
discussed that Tiers may not necessarily be relevant to
the needs of a community. You might select a lower tier
stove to meet those needs. Who on this list are
participants in the working groups? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Tom </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">
Stoves [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>;
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SPAM: Re: [Stoves] Advocacy action:
ask the GACC to stop promoting the WBT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Dear
Frank,<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><i>"the
WBT is only an outline for tests that need be done"</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Why
do an outline when we can do (good) tests instead?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Additionally
to these 3 problems you mentioned, you have to add the other
ones I quoted previously, some mentioned in Fabio and
Francesco's study. See below.<br>
It's not looking too good for me. Sometimes getting
something new is much faster and surer than fixing something
broken.<br>
I know that a lot of effort from many people went into
"fixing" the WBT. But maybe it is beyond fixing. Maybe these
are sunk costs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">the WBT is not contextual, as Crispin
highlighted many times<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">several WBT metrics are invalid, as Crispin
highlighted many times<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">there are big thermodynamic uncertainties
(viz. variable steam production and boiling point
determination)<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l10
level1 lfo1">there are questions about the rationale of
some calculations, questions raised by Zhang et al.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We
have been talking about the WBT for a few weeks already (not
counting the years prior to that), and all these questions
haven't been answered.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">All,
for more details about these questions, please find the
links to all the studies I mentioned:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l6
level1 lfo2">Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties
in experimental analysis for improved and traditional
three–stone fire cookstoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l7
level1 lfo3">Key differences of performance test protocols
for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic
Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto">To
access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy
COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select
paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l5
level1 lfo4">Performance testing for monitoring improved
biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household
Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev
2007;11:57–70. <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l8
level1 lfo5">The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l3
level1 lfo6">Influence of testing parameters on biomass
stove performance and development of an improved testing
protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo7">How many replicate tests are needed to test
cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always
adequate.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1
level1 lfo8">Systematic and conceptual errors in standards
and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l9
level1 lfo9">Quality assurance for cookstoves testing
centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l4
level1 lfo10">Key factors of thermal efficiency test
protocols<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:0in;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo11">Towards a standard for clean solid-fuelled
cookstoves<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves</a><br>
<br>
Looking forward to your comments!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman",serif;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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