<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Nikhil,<br>
      <br>
      <ol>
        <li>I didn't want to spend time delving in the past to see who
          did what, how much the GACC promoted the WBT. The GACC was
          among the parties who was, I believe, pushing for an agreement
          at the IWA meeting. In the agreement, the writers wrote the
          sentence: "the WBT is not the only valid protocol". I don't
          know who said the WBT was valid in the first place. It has
          never been reviewed, as far as I know. But we were given this
          agreement to agree upon. I think the GACC has most often
          communicated about the WBT than other protocols, but that
          would be understandable, the WBT is quite convenient to use,
          and quite easy to learn. It was one of the main protocols,
          with the CCT and KPT, that was taught to the Regional Testing
          and Knowledge Centers (RTKC), an initiative of the GACC. But
          testers usually don't do so many CCTs, it is too costly, too
          many efforts to organize and it takes too much time. I believe
          it was mostly the VITA WBT, but I believe the GACC promoted
          also other protocols.</li>
        <li>I think the GACC was supporting the updating of the WBT:<br>
        </li>
      </ol>
      <ol>
        <li>I don't know, but I don't believe so. I think the Aprovecho
          equipment was often the only suggested option, I don't know of
          other suppliers of testing equipment. Maybe the Setar?<br>
        </li>
      </ol>
      Another<br>
      As I said, what is the past is the past. <br>
      <ol>
      </ol>
      <br>
      On 2/18/17 19:06, Traveller wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAK27e=mtB_k9ONEYANq4ph2mtCY8MvheDygV49XM4m2gOrvCDw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Xavier: <br>
        <br>
        As an economist, I agree with you sunk cost has no
        consideration. I wonder, though, how much or how little work has
        been done anyway.  Lima Consensus or IWA promises seem to have
        wilted.<br>
        <br>
        I am sorry I am asking two serious questions rather late - <br>
        <ol>
          <li>What is your evidence that GACC has "promoted" the WBT? Is
            it only the VITA WBT or also the Indian or Chinese? </li>
          <li>Do you know if WBT been mandated or officially sanctioned
            by EPA in any testing by EPA for cookstoves in the US, and
            further if Approvecho or any such testing facilities for
            household cookstoves have been accredited by the EPA (and if
            so, on what basis) or have received ISO accreditation? Has
            GACC demanded Approvecho equipment or training for non-US
            stoves programs? <br>
          </li>
        </ol>
        It may well be that there is no legal authority for an
        unregistered private group - a project of the UN Foundation - to
        promote WBT, approve WBT, or approve any testing facility in the
        US, unless there are secret agreements with authorities in
        respective countries (US and elsewhere). <br>
        <br>
        I am revisiting the IWA, and I find that the 90 experts resolved
        that "Resolution 1
        The International Workshop on Cookstoves recognizes that the
        VITA WBT 4.1.2 protocol
        referenced in this document is not the only valid protocol for
        rating cookstove performance in the
        laboratory. "<br>
        <br>
        Why is Ron disputing the very first resolution? <br>
        <br>
        The IWA was entirely PCIA - that is, a US Government, as USAID
        and EPA - product and clearly reflecting the US practice of WBT
        by EPA contractors even though I have not yet found any EPA
        regulation for test protocols or testing laboratories for
        biomass cookstoves. <br>
        <br>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">DeFoort said on the Lima
            Consensus "</span>to use the WBT 4.0 (emissions), Iowa State
          or Bolivia (safety) as <u>interim protocols" and that after
            IWA, "In the next few months: • Propose changes to protocols
            and additional protocols • Define quantitative tier values
            for those additional protocols"</u><br>
          <br>
          What is the status?  </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        I also think the presentations at IWA need a relook. For
        instance, Jim Jetter proposed a measure of "mg/MJ delivered to
        the pot." This simply means that a poor household with a small
        kitchen area and eight people to feed can have higher emission
        loading than someone like me, cooking in a 120 sq ft kitchen
        with two windows and a door close to a balcony door, in a 1,000
        sq ft apt on fourth floor of a tall building open on three
        sides.  
        <div><br>
          <div>Where do these experts come up with Tiers, specific
            emission rate targets? Are they hide data on "three stone"
            fires of supposedly 300 million cooks?  <br>
            <br>
            This could be a scandal. Which is why US interests need the
            ISO - not just for standards but the testing protocols and
            equipment, and staff training. 
            <div><br>
              ***********<br>
              <br>
              Frank here has been talking of a radical (at least for WBT
              believers) idea - "<span style="font-size:12.8px">where
                the fuel limits are determined for their stove."<br>
                <br>
                Imagine!! He says, "</span><span
                style="font-size:12.8px">The onsite wild biomass is
                semi-prepared.."<br>
                <br>
                Imagine!! We are not in the realm of birch and oak or
                mango wood any more. (Hard wood has much better uses
                than direct fuel, even for making charcoal.)<br>
                <br>
                Get a fix on the fuel. Because operations of a cookstove
                aren't going to be amenable to regulations like what EPA
                has on residential wood heaters in the US: ""</span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">The rule continues to require
                the owner or operator of a wood </span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">heating appliance to operate
                the heater consistent with the owner's </span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">manual and <u>not burn
                  improper fuel. Owners and operators must operate </u></span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><u>pellet fuel appliances with
                  the grades of pellet fuels that are </u></span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><u>included in the owner's
                  manual</u>. Manufacturers are required to void </span><span
                style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">their warranties in cases of
                improper operation." (Federal Register 16 March 2015). </span>
              <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
                </span></div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Nikhil</div>
                  <div><br>
                    <br>
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Message: 7</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Date: Wed, 15 Feb
                      2017 18:07:38 -0800</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">From: Frank Shields
                      <</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">To: Discussion of
                      biomass cooking stoves</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Cc: Xavier Brandao
                      <</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">>,     Ranyee Chiang</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Subject: Re: [Stoves]
                      Advocacy action: ask the GACC to stop promoting</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        the WBT</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Message-ID: <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:344854B2-D626-4108-9354-7E767AEAB82F@cruzio.com"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">344854B2-D626-4108-9354-7E767<wbr>AEAB82F@cruzio.com</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Content-Type:
                      text/plain; charset="us-ascii"</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Dear Ron,</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Just a quick comment:</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">you say:</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        This is not
                      to say that affordability knowledge will not come
                      out of lab testing.  In fact it is the only way to
                      make comparisons and claims on meal, daily,
                      weekly, monthly and annual costs.  But costs
                      should not be an output from a lab test.  Sales
                      people know that world well - and it will vary all
                      over the place.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">A goal should be to
                      make all stove developers able to present their
                      stove into the market equal to everyones else.
                      That would be to have them send their stove into a
                      lab where the fuel limits are determined for their
                      stove. That done once and paper carrying test
                      results included with the stove. No other tests
                      done on the stove in the lab. Cooking tests and
                      acceptance and air quality tests done in the field
                      (I am now thinking). We just need to know what
                      type of fuel the stove is designed to use and the
                      limits so to match stoves with the available wild
                      biomass on site. And any preparation requirements
                      on the wild biomass needed for each stove.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">I once saw a graph
                      that i think would work but now cannot find it. It
                      looked like a spider web. Each spoke was a
                      condition (moisture, volatile fraction, ash,
                      carbon density, length to width ratio, size
                      distribution, etc.). The stove leaves the lab with
                      one of these reports. The onsite wild biomass is
                      semi-prepared and has its own sheet. Place one on
                      top of the other and if the stove values fall
                      within the wild biomass values the stove will work
                      for that fuel.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">So this test package
                      is done once on the stove and once on the wild
                      biomass. That should be affordable. As to the
                      added field work done to compare different stoves
                      onsite for acceptance and cleanliness - well that
                      could cost a lot of money. Who will pay for that?
                      If left to the stove developer then it will end up
                      being only the chosen privileged given the
                      opportunity.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Thanks Ron for all
                      you do.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Regards</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Frank</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br>
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Message: 11</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Date: Thu, 16 Feb
                      2017 13:55:04 +0100</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">From: Xavier Brandao
                      <</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">To: Discussion of
                      biomass cooking stoves</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Cc: "Ronal W. Larson"
                      <</span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">>,      Ranyee Chiang</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">rchiang@cleancookstoves.org</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">>, yark <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:yark@illinois.edu"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">yark@illinois.edu</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Subject: Re: [Stoves]
                      Advocacy action: ask the GACC to stop promoting</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">        the WBT</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Message-ID: <</span><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:27b0fa40-f425-0c66-daf1-2a960f80d9a5@gmail.com"
                      style="font-size:12.8px" target="_blank">27b0fa40-f425-0c66-daf1-2a960<wbr>f80d9a5@gmail.com</a><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">></span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Content-Type:
                      text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Dear Frank,</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"Agree - if they are
                      relevant."</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/Of course, the
                      questions need to be relevant. Let's discuss then
                      the </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">relevance
                      of these questions. I know first that the question
                      raised by </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Fabio
                      Riva, Francesco Lombardi and their colleagues, and
                      that they have,</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">fortunately for us,
                      started to answer, is very relevant.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Dear Ron,</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">What you are doing is
                      using an appeal to authority, also called </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">"argument from
                      prestige": </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/authority.html"
                      rel="noreferrer" style="font-size:12.8px"
                      target="_blank">http://philosophy.l<wbr>ander.edu/logic/authority.html</a><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"This person has a
                      great CV, so probably he/she is right". Appeal to </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">authority is something I
                      don't like, because I think everyone's opinion </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">matter, as long as they
                      bring a reasonable argumentation. Everyone's </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">voice counts the same,
                      regardless of the nice CV. Of course, we will </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">probably trust more the
                      opinion of a doctor in psychology than the one </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">of a carpenter on
                      psychology questions, and vice-versa. But this is
                      not </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">the
                      situation here.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">And you might not
                      want to go down this road, because if you start
                      to </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">have a
                      look at Crispin's CV, or Harold Annegarn's, or
                      Philip Lloyd's, </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">with his degrees in
                      chemical engineering and nuclear physics, you
                      might</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">become very
                      interested in the work they did on protocols. They
                      did a lot </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">of
                      work, in their field of expertise.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"there are a few in
                      this dialog who _would_ completely throw five
                      years </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">of
                      hard work by many out the window., with no
                      intention to ever return." <br>
                    </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">What you talk about
                      is sunk cost: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost"
                      rel="noreferrer" style="font-size:12.8px"
                      target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org<wbr>/wiki/Sunk_cost</a><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">This is very
                      important, because I got this argument already
                      from WBT </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">supporters,
                      and I am sure it was one of the main arguments in
                      the </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">discussions
                      at ETHOS. Sunk cost is a very common bias in </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">decision-making. It is a
                      shame if 5 years of hard work are lost, but </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">they are already lost. If
                      it is a dead end, it is a dead end, no matter </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">how many you bang your
                      head on the wall. </span></div>
                  <div><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">What we try to
                      prevent now is other years of wasted efforts. Stop
                      the </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">bleeding.</span></div>
                  <div><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Excuse my French, but
                      I'll use a not very elegant but powerful image to </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">illustrate that: if you
                      have been piling shit for 5 years, you might be </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">frustrated to get rid of
                      all that shit, because even if it is shit, it </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">took a long time to make
                      a pile that high. But even if you keep piling </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">layers and layers of shit
                      on top, it will never turn into a pile of gold.<br>
                    </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">By the way, do you
                      know how much money was spent improving the WBT?</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">The sunk cost concept
                      is to start doing the right thing _now_. It is </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">never too late to do the
                      right thing.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Along those lines, I
                      would like to ask you other questions:</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">  * How many years of
                      efforts were lost, because of the uncertainty of </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">results obtained from the
                      WBT testing?</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">  * How much money
                      and efforts did stove companies, project leaders </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">wasted, because their
                      stove went from one testing center to another, </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">with conflicting results?</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">  * How hindered were
                      they in their mission, which is to solve poverty </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">and save lives? Talking
                      about social impact.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">I let you ponder on
                      that.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">So in fact I'll try
                      to be true, maybe yes, maybe I want to "kill" the </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">WBT. If it is not
                      fixable, and as I say I doubt it is, and if it
                      does </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">more
                      harm then good, then yes, it should be "killed".<br>
                    </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">But now I am just
                      asking to put it aside.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"It seems the WBT is
                      not able to inform us on performance.*[RWL2: </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px"> Please explain
                      further."*</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">The 10 studies and
                      Crispin explain it well: we are not sure the WBT
                      test </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">tells
                      us how the stove performs.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/*"a)  affordability
                      (the second item in Dr. Chiang?s list)?  Do you </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">really wish this in an
                      ISO test?"*/</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Not really no,
                      affordability is relative, it should be left to
                      project </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">leaders,
                      companies, and the end customers to decide what is
                      an </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">affordable
                      stove. I don't believe there are standards for
                      affordability.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">I am not sure I
                      understood your first remark, but what I
                      understood is </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">that you said: "Dr.
                      Chiang is committed to affordable stoves, so her </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">work on the WBT, and the
                      WBT as it is now, reflect that". She certainly</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">is, but so are
                      business and project leaders like Vahid, Camilla, </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">Mouhsine or Sujatha, and
                      they certainly each have spent much more time </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">working on these issues.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*"I see _NO_ other
                      way to inform on performance."</span></div>
                  <div><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*HTP and CSI, and a
                      few other protocols.*</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">***"There is an
                      ongoing (even today) WG3 discussion on field
                      testing*"</span></div>
                  <div><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*Field testing with
                      the right protocols, sure, because it is
                      contextual </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">and
                      provides a much more accurate picture.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"*Are you
                      fundamentally opposed to any test placing stoves
                      into 9 [more </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">or
                      less] tiers?*"</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">No. It is practical
                      to have tiers, a bit like energy ratings for </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">refrigerators or light
                      bulbs. </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">I am opposed to that
                      if it is scientifically invalid, like it seems to
                      be.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">**</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*"And where are you
                      on including charcoal output in the reporting of </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">performance?"*</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">I have no strong
                      opinion on that. Tami and Crispin present
                      convincing </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">arguments.
                      I agree with you it should be reported, for sure,
                      but in a </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">scientifically
                      correct way.</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"*b) context?   This
                      is the purview of WG3 - field testing."*</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">Sure, but it is not
                      the purview of the WBT, that's one of the
                      problems </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">with
                      it.*</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">"*shipping?   I doubt
                      you can find any ISO test procedure that includes </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">shipping as an issue."<br>
                    </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*I am not talking
                      about shipping, I am talking about developing a
                      stove </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">by
                      using the WBT for months, and one day having this
                      stove being used </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">for real, by real local
                      cooks, in a completely different geographical </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">and cultural context.
                      Surprise, surprise.**This is where you get the </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">first
                      interesting**results.</span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">Contextua<wbr>l testing,
                      even when performed in a </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">different location,
                      limits the surprise.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*Don?t you agree that
                      all the above are best left to the companies and </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">individuals selling
                      stoves, not those involved in lab (or field)
                      testing?<br>
                    </span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*Ideally, but in
                      reality the companies and individuals, to whom I
                      will </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">add the
                      large international development and humanitarian
                      organizations, </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">are very short on time
                      and staff, and under a lot of pressure. And they </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">are not scientists
                      (they've been told that well enough). And they
                      don't </span><span style="font-size:12.8px">have
                      the equipment. So they delegate the testing to
                      organizations they </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">trust.**The organizations
                      they**trust must provide them testing results </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">that can give a fair (it
                      is never perfect) idea of how their stove will </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">perform for their
                      context. The WBT does not allow that.</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/*"3)  usability, and
                      */</span><br style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/*4)  access to a
                      broad range of technology */</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">/*and fuel
                      opportunities.?*/</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">//</span><br
                      style="font-size:12.8px">
                    <span style="font-size:12.8px">*I contend, mostly
                      from several stays at Aprovecho, that lab testing </span><span
                      style="font-size:12.8px">using the WBT, can give
                      great insight on these as well." <br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div
                        class="m_-7436136485407072684gmail-m_6069262050878380885gmail_signature">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div>
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div>
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                    <div dir="ltr"><span
                                        style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px">--------- </span></div>
                                    <div style="font-size:12.8px"><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px">(India <a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="tel:+91%2090999%2052080"
                                          value="+919099952080"
                                          target="_blank">+91) 909 995
                                          2080</a></span><font
                                        face="georgia, serif"><br>
                                        <i> <br>
                                        </i></font></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>