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Anyone,<br>
<br>
Can the OTHER tests be conducted using the LEMS equipment?<br>
<br>
Where can the tests from India, China or SeTAR be conducted other
than in India, China or South Africa? And do any of those places
have the WBT testing also available?<br>
<br>
Has anyone done tests of the same stove and same fuel with more than
one of the test methods? If yes, can we see some results? <br>
<br>
Have Jim Jetter or others experimented / checked out the other
methods?<br>
<br>
Unfortunate if this has not been done. Or has been done but not
shared for all to see.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2017 8:10 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:DM5PR2201MB149955A93CE35F9DA5394C58B15B0@DM5PR2201MB1499.namprd22.prod.outlook.com"
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Dear Tom and All</div>
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<br>
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I challenge the idea that the WBT (not all water boiling, just
that protocol) is valuable as a design and development tool. </div>
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<br>
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The simple fact is that the WBT gives uncertain and incorrect
measures of performance. Using the Indian, Chinese or SeTAR
efficiency test (v1.57) will provide a much more accurate and
consistent evaluation. </div>
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<br>
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It is unfortunate that the WBT still clings to life as a
'development tool'. The high power metrics are misleading and
the low power metrics are scientifically worthless. A
much-repeated and incorrect claim is that 'if a stoves performs
well on the WBT it will generally performs well in the field'.
Another shibboleth is that if a stove doesn't perform well 'in
the lab' (hinting that it will be a WBT) it 'will generally not
perform well in the field'. </div>
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<br>
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What one would normally call 'proof' of these twin claims is
missing. I take it as an admission that the WBT is not useful
for performance rating. I already know it is not useful for
product development. It is not useful for sorting out what might
do well in real life from that which will not. </div>
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<br>
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There are obviously significant implications for this. The
obvious first step is that it should not be a requirement that
any stove perform 'well' on its metrics in order to be
considered for a subsidised improved stove programme. </div>
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<br>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Xavier,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">The donors
and participants in GACC who I talked with at ETHOS regard
the WBT as a useful tool for stove development but
question its use for comparing stove performance in use. A
recent study in Germany was cited where WBT tests were
different from different labs. There was also a lot of
discussion from the GACC working group leaders and
participants about the need for contextual evaluation. A
detailed approach to contextual evaluation was presented
by GIZ which refleted much of what has been discussed
here. It was also stated in the WG4 summary that options
and exceptions are being delineated. What’s missing here
is a clear understanding of what is actually being
discussed about WBT, where, and for what purpose. The
fears and concerns of negative impacts from WBT tests
were clearly stated by various speaker. It was also
discussed that Tiers may not necessarily be relevant to
the needs of a community. You might select a lower tier
stove to meet those needs. Who on this list are
participants in the working groups? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Tom </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></a></p>
<span style=""></span>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> Stoves
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SPAM: Re: [Stoves] Advocacy action:
ask the GACC to stop promoting the WBT</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Dear Frank,<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><i>"the WBT is only an outline
for tests that need be done"</i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Why do an outline when we can do
(good) tests instead?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Additionally to these 3 problems
you mentioned, you have to add the other ones I quoted
previously, some mentioned in Fabio and Francesco's study.
See below.<br>
It's not looking too good for me. Sometimes getting
something new is much faster and surer than fixing something
broken.<br>
I know that a lot of effort from many people went into
"fixing" the WBT. But maybe it is beyond fixing. Maybe these
are sunk costs.</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">the WBT is not
contextual, as Crispin highlighted many times</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">several WBT
metrics are invalid, as Crispin highlighted many times</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">there are big
thermodynamic uncertainties (viz. variable steam
production and boiling point determination)</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">there are
questions about the rationale of some calculations,
questions raised by Zhang et al.</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">We have been talking about the
WBT for a few weeks already (not counting the years prior to
that), and all these questions haven't been answered.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">All, for more details about
these questions, please find the links to all the studies I
mentioned:</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Fuzzy interval
propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for
improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Key
differences of performance test protocols for household
biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy,
IEEE 2014:1–11.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in; margin-bottom:.0001pt">
To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy
COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select
paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Performance
testing for monitoring improved biomass stove
interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and
Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70.
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">The
shortcomings of the U.S. protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Influence of
testing parameters on biomass stove performance and
development of an improved testing protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">How many
replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance
and emissions? — Three is not always adequate.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Systematic and
conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal
performance of biomass stoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Quality
assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of
expanded uncertainty for WBT<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Key factors of
thermal efficiency test protocols<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a></li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Towards a
standard for clean solid-fuelled cookstoves</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves</a><br>
<br>
Looking forward to your comments!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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