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Crispin,<br>
<br>
Are any comparative results available, showing what each of the
different test methods/calculation produces?<br>
<br>
Please provide some sets of numbers.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/2017 11:43 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:DM5PR2201MB1499591389D31F6CAD9EA8D6B15E0@DM5PR2201MB1499.namprd22.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
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<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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Dear Paul</div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<br>
</div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">The same stove was tested with the same
fuel and several different test methods at the CAU stove
conference a couple of years ago. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">The equipment can be used to provide
inputs into other calculations, ie not using the WBT
calculations. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Remember the WBT includes a method of
calculation performance metrics, and a burn sequence. These
are independently changeable. You could cook a meal instead
of boiling water. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">The equipment is separate again. The
spreadsheet for the WBT is not directly compatible with the
LEMS, there has to be a set of intermediate calculations. That
is done with a separate spreadsheet which used to be called
version 7 but has been renamed v4.2.3 to make it appear that
it goes together with the WBT. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif;
color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">The calculations are not identical, but
are very similar. An important difference is that the 'number
of litres boiled' according to the LEMS version is the same as
the volume in the pot whereas the WBT sheet reports the final
volume. Thus the fuel consumption 'per litre boiled' is lower
of the LEMS sheet is used. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">The bigger issue with the equipment is
the accuracy and calibrations. The bigger issue with the burn
sequence is its decontextual nature. The bigger issue with
the calculations is the invalid efficiency claims and low
power metrics which are still being used to allocate funding. </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Adding a better gas analyser to the LEMS
and a scale under the stove one can generate all sorts of
interesting assessments. The first thing to do is to abandon
the WBT as a test method.
</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
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</span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Regards </span></div>
<div style="width:100%; font-size:initial;
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial">Crispin </span></div>
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<span style="font-size:initial; text-align:initial;
line-height:initial"><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>Anyone,<br>
<br>
Can the OTHER tests be conducted using the LEMS equipment?<br>
<br>
Where can the tests from India, China or SeTAR be conducted
other than in India, China or South Africa? And do any of
those places have the WBT testing also available?<br>
<br>
Has anyone done tests of the same stove and same fuel with more
than one of the test methods? If yes, can we see some
results?
<br>
<br>
Have Jim Jetter or others experimented / checked out the other
methods?<br>
<br>
Unfortunate if this has not been done. Or has been done but
not shared for all to see.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/14/2017 8:10 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
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Dear Tom and All</div>
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<br>
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I challenge the idea that the WBT (not all water boiling,
just that protocol) is valuable as a design and development
tool. </div>
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<br>
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The simple fact is that the WBT gives uncertain and
incorrect measures of performance. Using the Indian, Chinese
or SeTAR efficiency test (v1.57) will provide a much more
accurate and consistent evaluation. </div>
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<br>
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It is unfortunate that the WBT still clings to life as a
'development tool'. The high power metrics are misleading
and the low power metrics are scientifically worthless. A
much-repeated and incorrect claim is that 'if a stoves
performs well on the WBT it will generally performs well in
the field'. Another shibboleth is that if a stove doesn't
perform well 'in the lab' (hinting that it will be a WBT) it
'will generally not perform well in the field'. </div>
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<br>
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What one would normally call 'proof' of these twin claims is
missing. I take it as an admission that the WBT is not
useful for performance rating. I already know it is not
useful for product development. It is not useful for sorting
out what might do well in real life from that which will
not. </div>
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<br>
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There are obviously significant implications for this. The
obvious first step is that it should not be a requirement
that any stove perform 'well' on its metrics in order to be
considered for a subsidised improved stove programme. </div>
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<br>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Xavier,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">The
donors and participants in GACC who I talked with at
ETHOS regard the WBT as a useful tool for stove
development but question its use for comparing stove
performance in use. A recent study in Germany was
cited where WBT tests were different from different
labs. There was also a lot of discussion from the GACC
working group leaders and participants about the need
for contextual evaluation. A detailed approach to
contextual evaluation was presented by GIZ which
refleted much of what has been discussed here. It was
also stated in the WG4 summary that options and
exceptions are being delineated. What’s missing here
is a clear understanding of what is actually being
discussed about WBT, where, and for what purpose. The
fears and concerns of negative impacts from WBT tests
were clearly stated by various speaker. It was also
discussed that Tiers may not necessarily be relevant
to the needs of a community. You might select a lower
tier stove to meet those needs. Who on this list are
participants in the working groups? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Tom </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
name="_MailEndCompose"><span style="color:windowtext"> </span></a></p>
<span style=""></span>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span
style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="color:windowtext"> Stoves [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xavier Brandao<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">
<stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">
franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> SPAM: Re: [Stoves] Advocacy
action: ask the GACC to stop promoting the WBT</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Dear Frank,<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""><i>"the WBT is only an
outline for tests that need be done"</i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Why do an outline when we
can do (good) tests instead?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Additionally to these 3
problems you mentioned, you have to add the other ones I
quoted previously, some mentioned in Fabio and
Francesco's study. See below.<br>
It's not looking too good for me. Sometimes getting
something new is much faster and surer than fixing
something broken.<br>
I know that a lot of effort from many people went into
"fixing" the WBT. But maybe it is beyond fixing. Maybe
these are sunk costs.</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">the WBT is
not contextual, as Crispin highlighted many times
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">several
WBT metrics are invalid, as Crispin highlighted many
times
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">there are
big thermodynamic uncertainties (viz. variable steam
production and boiling point determination)
</li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">there are
questions about the rationale of some calculations,
questions raised by Zhang et al.
</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">We have been talking about
the WBT for a few weeks already (not counting the years
prior to that), and all these questions haven't been
answered.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">All, for more details about
these questions, please find the links to all the
studies I mentioned:</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Fuzzy
interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental
analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire
cookstoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Key
differences of performance test protocols for
household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic
Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</a>
</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle" style="margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in; margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt">
To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy
COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select
paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).</p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Performance
testing for monitoring improved biomass stove
interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and
Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70.
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">The
shortcomings of the U.S. protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Influence
of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and
development of an improved testing protocol<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">How many
replicate tests are needed to test cookstove
performance and emissions? — Three is not always
adequate.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Systematic
and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for
thermal performance of biomass stoves<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Quality
assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation
of expanded uncertainty for WBT<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Key
factors of thermal efficiency test protocols<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a>
</li>
</ul>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0in">Towards a
standard for clean solid-fuelled cookstoves
</li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <a
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<br>
Looking forward to your comments!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Xavier</p>
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