<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">List: cc Crispin</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1. To summarize where we are: a small January meeting on cooking was held in Nairobi, with a focus on health and Kenya’s mostly illegal charcoal market and deforestation. This resulted in several news accounts and a summary paper written by the meeting organizer calling for changes. There was apparently no mention of charcoal-making stoves nor biochar - but these are natural reasons for Tom Miles to have brought one of these news reports to our attention 2 days ago. Crispin reacted negatively using phrases like this about the health impacts - which were obviously a part of the views presented: </div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><i class=""> “<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="">Of the many untrue things written in the article, this is probably the most outrageous, and that is really saying something.</span><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class="">”</span></font></i></div><div class=""><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" class=""><span style="font-size: 15px;" class=""><br class=""></span></font></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2. Crispin then spent much of his first Saturday response (all below) “proving” that smoke from cooking was LESS (!) of a health impact that cigarette smoke by a factor of 10,000. Also on Saturday, I questioned his analysis. I will not respond further to his repeat assertion that this is a valid computation - but I here urge caution to others who choose to cite this as authoritative (I gave conflicting cites). I will not comment further on his continuing assertion on this validity.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3. I do need to answer briefly on his final paragraph of his second Saturday response to me: </div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a) “<span style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class="">If Kenya has a deforestation problem how will it be solved by making charcoal and not cooking with it? "</i></span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></i></span></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWLa: Be assured that Kenya DOES (not “If”) have that problem. The biochar answer is discussed virtually every day on our sister “biochar” list (to which I don’t believe Crispin subscribes). It happens that the last several days have had a nice series on the various activities of Michael Shafer in Cambodia with excellent local responses to biochar introduction. That list was always intended to avoid needing biochar discussion on this list (but making char in stoves is the main reason this list was formed - more than 20 years ago).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>On this list we regularly hear how char-making stoves are the only ones achieving Tier 4 status (and not only on efficiency measures). This list doesn’t need to hear my response to Crispin’s “how” question, when it is so easily obtained elsewhere (see especially Paul Anderson’s site).</b></div><div class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Also, I would be repeating (probably too many) discussions on this list already about char-making stoves with application to soils, carbon dioxide removal, water and fertilizer savings, rural economic development, CH4 and NOx benefits, time savings, etc. (and health) </b></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><b class=""> </b></div><div class=""><span style="text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; font-size: initial; white-space: pre;"> </span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class="">b) </font><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3" class="">“</font><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class="">Again, there is math involved. Hand waving is not helping. Put the numbers on paper, as I have done for you multiple times. </font></i></span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">“</i></font></div><div class=""><span style="text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><i class=""><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><br class=""></font></i></span></div><div class=""><span style="text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-style: italic; white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWLb: I cannot recall ANY “<i class="">numbers on paper</i></b></font></span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">” related to stoves, deforestation and biochar from Crispin. Can anyone give me a specific cite? I have not received anything off-list either. I strongly look forward to reading anything from him on these topics - some parts of which might be list-relevant. I am again saying here that this list is not the right one - when another exists for that purpose. But I am left wondering what Crispin thinks he has “<i class="">done for”</i> me “<i class="">multiple times</i>”.</b></font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><br class=""></b></font></div><div class=""><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">Ron (also few inserts below)</b></font></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 11, 2017, at 6:42 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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Dear Ron </div>
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Before starting to jump into the topic of exposure you will have to home your exposure calculations. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: “home”? typo for “ hone”? (Yes exposure is important - and i don’t find it in Crispin’s 10,000 [less] number).</b></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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"<b style="line-height:initial" class="">I have never been in a room with cigarette smokers as bad as many wood-burning stove situations I have been in. I have been in a closed room with a char-making stove where I could smell nothing."</b></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">Smoking a cigarette, inhaling the more than 200 carcinogens directly into the lungs, exposes the smoker to all of the mass of smoke, not some tiny portion of it distributed throughout a room. </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">Now, redo your calculation with actual exposures, and the math of my calculation will be shown to be correct. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">Regarding Kirk and his writings on exposure I remind you of a point Nikhil raised multiple times, one ignored by the claimants for 'avoidability'. Just because something has been attributed to some cause (as per EPA) does not
mean it actually caused it, and just because it has been attributed does not mean some proposed solution will have a net benefit in the long term for the obvious reason that we do not know what lies in people’s futures. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I see no reason I should take the opinion of Nikhil over Kirk Smith, Michael Johnson (Berkeley Air), WHO, EPA, Lancet, etc.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">The article blames poor people cooking with wood for causing the recent drought in Kenya. The claim is patently false. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: I found no such statement. </b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">It is not helpful if we promoting improved cooking solutions, making sweeping claims are about how the poorest people on the planet are responsible for ‘solving' any imaginable, speculative catastrophe. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: The poor will benefit (not at all suffer) from being offered “stove” money by people such as myself for removing my </b><b class="">“legacy carbon”.</b></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial" class="">Regarding the toxicity of smoke, smoke from what? Smoke is not a 'substance' it is anything from poisonous alkaloids and condensed tars to fly ash and everything in between. In other words smoke can be anything you want it
to be. Cooks do not run the entire emissions of a stove through their lungs before it is exhaled into the room. Smoking comparisons are not valid unless the exposures are properly compared. </span><span style="line-height:initial; font-size:initial; text-align:initial" class="">Making
up scary-sounding accusations about causes and purporting solutions that feed the ‘big stove' organisations is not helpful. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: The smoke topic was addressed above.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial; font-size:initial; text-align:initial" class="">If Kenya has a deforestation problem how will it be solved by making charcoal and not cooking with it? Again, there is math involved. Hand waving is not helping. Put the numbers on paper,
as I have done for you multiple times. </span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL: Also my main response above.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron (The next entry was from me - also on Saturday.) End of this Monday response. The three Saturday exchanges are all below.</b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">
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<span style="line-height:initial; font-size:initial; text-align:initial" class="">Regards </span></div>
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<span style="line-height:initial; font-size:initial; text-align:initial" class="">Crispin </span>
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<div class="">List: cc Tom (with thanks for stating this useful thread) and Crispin</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL1. Summary - I think Crispin is a too hard on this reporter (and the panel she was reporting on) - whose work Tom Miles sent to us today. Much of the panel dialog seems to be about
charcoal and stove problems - and this seems a good chance to focus on stove health issues.</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL2. The article we heard about today is a report on a 6-person panel that met in Nairobi on 19 January. The sponsoring organization (wPOWER) looks like a valuable one; their own
write-up gives more on the panelists, who look well chosen for the topic. I see nothing too surprising in the write-up:</div>
<div class=""><a href="http://wpowerhub.org/threat-or-opportunity-what-is-the-future-of-woodfuels-as-a-renewable-energy-source/#.WMRo7BIrL_R" class="">http://wpowerhub.org/threat-or-opportunity-what-is-the-future-of-woodfuels-as-a-renewable-energy-source/#.WMRo7BIrL_R</a></div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL3. I found one other report on this panel:</div>
<div class=""><a href="http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=9cb21f8b9d12b67232bc5b542&id=6d84d9ab98&e=bccf29360a#ISP" class="">http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=9cb21f8b9d12b67232bc5b542&id=6d84d9ab98&e=bccf29360a#ISP</a>, which more or less agrees with the
above and the report by reporter Ms. Mwololo.</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL4. The panel moderator Wanjira Mathai (daughter of a most-famous Kenyan) wrote very recently on the panel theme on p 48 at: </div>
<div class=""><a href="http://wpowerhub.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/population-debate-1.pdf" class="">http://wpowerhub.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/population-debate-1.pdf</a></div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>She was probably the person who invited the 6 panelists. Her closing sentences make sense to me from the standpoint of this list and of GACC:</div>
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<div class=""><i class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>"We must accept that wood fuel is not a transitional fuel. It is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Demystifying the wood fuel value chain, therefore, and pursuing one
that is more sustainable as population pressures increase would be a game changer for climate and would stimulate innovations in the use of this essential fuel.” </i></div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I recommend her views as the reason for this panel (and for this list).</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL5. I didn’t follow up on all the participants, but by chance I found that Dr. Mary Njenga is expert on briquettes. For those interested in that I recommend a short video and an
interview. <a href="http://borlaugleap.org/fellow/mary-njenga" class="">http://borlaugleap.org/fellow/mary-njenga</a> . I think she is a future good resource for many on this list.</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>RWL6. Here are some other cites that somewhat relate.</div>
<div class=""><a href="http://www.familiesforcleanair.org/health/health4/" class="">http://www.familiesforcleanair.org/health/health4/</a></div>
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<div class=""><a href="http://www.lung.org/about-us/media/top-stories/wood-stoves-harm-health.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/" class="">http://www.lung.org/about-us/media/top-stories/wood-stoves-harm-health.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/</a></div>
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<div class=""><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-shufro/wood-stove-smoke-is-killi_b_6587462.html" class="">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-shufro/wood-stove-smoke-is-killi_b_6587462.html</a> <span class="" style="font-family:NotoNashkArabic,ProximaNova,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif; orphans:2; widows:2"> In
a single hour, a fire in a hearth generates quantities of these hydrocarbons at levels produced by burning </span><a href="http://uphe.org/priority-issues/wood-burning/wood-burning-quick-facts/" target="_hplink" class="" style="color:rgb(46,112,97); font-family:NotoNashkArabic,ProximaNova,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif; orphans:2; widows:2">6,000
packs of cigarettes</a><span class="" style="font-family:NotoNashkArabic,ProximaNova,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif; orphans:2; widows:2">.” </span></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:NotoNashkArabic,ProximaNova,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif; orphans:2; widows:2"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span> This last “6000” is from </span><a href="http://uphe.org/priority-issues/wood-burning/wood-burning-quick-facts/" class="">http://uphe.org/priority-issues/wood-burning/wood-burning-quick-facts/</a><span class="" style="font-family:NotoNashkArabic,ProximaNova,'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Roboto,Arial,sans-serif; orphans:2; widows:2">
- and bigger than reporting in this article</span></div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>More below.</div>
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<div class="">On Mar 11, 2017, at 10:32 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Dear Stovers who want to have a clue about fuelwood combustion</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This is a quote from the article linked below:</span></div>
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<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
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<i class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">“At the household level, the key issues to consider are women’s and children’s health. Indeed, World Health Organization studies show that one hour of using firewood has the same
health impacts as smoking a packet of cigarettes.”</span></i></div>
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<div style="orphans:2; widows:2" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL7: I only found this statement in this Mwololo article - as probably from the fossil fuel representative, Ms. Manyara,<span class="" style="color:rgb(93,93,93); font-family:Georgia,'ITC Century W01 Light'; font-size:17px; orphans:2; widows:2"> w</span><font color="#5d5d5d" face="Georgia, ITC Century W01 Light" class=""><span class="" style="font-size:17px">ho
was urging</span></font> LPG (which she is paid to do). We on this list don’t like it much, but this health difference is the reason for the major LPG stove tests going on with GACC support. The problem for us on this list is that we need to show that there
are ways to get the biomass stove performance to be fairly comparable to LPG - and certainly less costly and less harmful to the climate than LPG. We can’t make the climate argument re ethanol - but we can say that charcoal-making stoves are also needed for
carbon dioxide removal (CDR) and soil improvements. Ethanol can’t do either of those, nor can it make money for the cook. I am not claiming here that these multiple benefits of char-making stoves outweigh the remaining health benefits of liquid fuels - but
the poor I hope to soon see using char-making stoves may come to that conclusion. I am here saying I am in agreement with Ms. Mathai’s statement above in RWL4.</b></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<i class=""><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></i></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Of the many untrue things written in the article, this is probably the most outrageous, and that is really saying something.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL8: This above reference to WHO didn’t surprise me as much as it did Crispin. For instance, here is a quote from Kirk Smith in a WHO document:</b></div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><a href="http://www.who.int/features/2014/clean-household-energy/en/" class="">http://www.who.int/features/2014/clean-household-energy/en/</a> : <i class=""> <span class="" style="color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; orphans:2; widows:2; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">“Having
an open fire in your kitchen is like burning 400 cigarettes an hour,”</span></i></div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px; orphans:2; widows:2; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-style:italic; white-space:pre"></span></span></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>As Crispin responds to my statement that this statement is not outrageous, I hope he will also expand on his other “many untrue things”. These must relate to the 6 panelists
- not the reporter. Since she goes through the 6 panelists sequentially, we can figure out which panelist is saying these “outrageous" things. I don’t agree with other things Ms. Manyara says - but the one above I can’t complain about.</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The exposure one gets from a single cigarette is about 45 milligrams of PM2.5.
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL9: I found a number about half as large - so this is not the problem.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The exposure in the worst home tested by Fresh Air in Kyrgyzstan in the past 4 months, which has terrible indoor air pollution in most low income homes, was 6000 micrograms per cubic metre.
That is 20 times the exposure in Beijing on a bad ‘orange alert’ day. The exposure of a Kenyan cook is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">very</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>unlikely to be as high as that and I invite researchers
to show that it is indeed as high as 6000 for one hour per day, on average.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Next, to be exposed to the same level of PM2.5 as a pack of 20 cigarettes (45 x 20 = 900 mg or 900,000<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">µ</span><span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">g)
one would have to inhale 150 cubic metres of such air in an hour, or 150,000 litres. To do that in an hour would require about<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.quora.com/How-much-volume-do-we-inhale-and-exhale-in-a-day" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">6000</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>people!</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL10 : I need help with the “<i class="">150 cubic meters of such air in an hour”. </i>I am pretty sure one doesn’t need anywhere near that much to smoke a pack of cigarettes. This
site: </b><a href="http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/human-air-d_186.html" class="">http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/human-air-d_186.html</a><b class=""> says 0.5 m^3/hour. Smoking one cigarette per hour gets me to 10 m^3 per pack - not 150.<br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i class=""><b class=""></b></i></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><i class=""> </i></span></div>
<div class="" style="font-weight:normal; font-style:normal; margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As the health effect on a human from cigarette smoke is far worse than wood smoke,</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL11: I found numerous statements besides the two cites above that the reverse is true. Here is one source: </b><a href="http://www.familiesforcleanair.org/health/health4/" class="">http://www.familiesforcleanair.org/health/health4/</a>,
with these statistics<b class="">:</b></div>
<div class=""><p class="" style="padding:0px; margin:20px; font-family:Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; font-size:15px; orphans:2; widows:2; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<i class="">"EPA researchers estimate the lifetime cancer risk from wood smoke to be 12 times greater than from a similar amount of cigarette smoke.</i></p><p class="" style="padding:0px; margin:20px; font-family:Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; font-size:15px; orphans:2; widows:2; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<i class="">In a <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2546867" target="_blank" class="" style="padding:0px; margin:0px; text-decoration:none; color:rgb(35,97,161)">laboratory study at Louisiana State University</a>, researchers found that hazardous free
radicals in wood smoke are chemically active 40 times longer than those from cigarette smoke—so once inhaled, they will harm the body for far longer.</i></p><p class="" style="padding:0px; margin:20px; orphans:2; widows:2; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<i class="" style="font-family:Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,serif; font-size:15px">Other EPA estimates suggest that a single fireplace operating for an hour and burning 10 pounds of wood will generate 4,300 times more carcinogenic polyaromatic hydrocarbons
than 30 cigarettes</i><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" class=""><span class="" style="font-size:15px"><i class="">”</i></span></font></p>
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">Crispin is asserting/assuming that the health impacts of both cigarettes and cookstove smoke are only due to PM2.5. I look for his citation that backs that up. It won’t be in anything
from Kirk Smith - who has made this his life work. </b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I have never been in a room with cigarette smokers as bad as many wood-burning stove situations I have been in. I have been in a closed room with a char-making stove where I could
smell nothing.</b></div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">let’s call it 10,000 people to be safe. If an exaggeration of 10,000-fold is not alarming enough, consider all the other unsupportable ‘climate’ assertions thrown left and right in this piece.
Good grief why can’t people just promote their products on their merits without linking it to all the junk-topics-of-the-hour.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL12: I found no “<i class="">unsupportable climate assertions”. </i> This panel was apparently often talking about charcoal production - which is why I am on this list and responding.
I can’t recall any article, except for those on biochar, that says char-making is climate-beneficial. Does anyone have any such
<i class="">“junk-topic”</i> cite?</b></div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">CleanStar’s product makes perfectly good sense and has a viable business plan. Sugar cane-based ethanol is a processed biofuel which is convenient and can be burned very cleanly (test, don’t
assume). It can be produced at scale and distributed at lower cost and at greater convenience than LPG. So….just do it.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">For those who don’t know Sagun, he was one of the judges in the TerraWatt Prize competition held by National Geographic a couple of years ago. The organizer of that competition was so inspired
by the experience he has moved to Mozambique to try to fill in a gap created when CleanStar moved to Kenya.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>[RWL13: </b>See this about Sagun: <a href="http://blog.worldagroforestry.org/index.php/2013/06/14/biofuels-venture-connects-cities-to-farms-in-mozambique/" class="">http://blog.worldagroforestry.org/index.php/2013/06/14/biofuels-venture-connects-cities-to-farms-in-mozambique/</a> .
He seems to be doing good work - as Crispin is agreeing</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">May they both succeed.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL14: Not sure who “both” refers to - maybe CleanStar in both Kenya and Mozambique? I agree - but not agreeing on LPG.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>(small bit more below)<br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Regards</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Crispin</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span class="" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">
<span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Using Efficient Methods to Manage Fuelwood is the Key</span></div><p class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">By MILLICENT MWOLOLO</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To use or not to use fuelwood?-<a href="http://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/DN2/kenya-fuel-use-or-not-to-use-fuelwood/957860-3838414-ra9sgf/index.html" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">http://www.nation.co.ke/lifestyle/DN2/kenya-fuel-use-or-not-to-use-fuelwood/957860-3838414-ra9sgf/index.html</a></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">In Summary</span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Woodfuel releases carbon fumes into the air, adding to the carbon footprint and global warming. This has resulted in global climatic change, which is also being witnessed in Kenya
in the form of higher temperatures, prolonged droughts and dry spells.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL15: These two sentences in the summary appear exactly the same in the text and as a photo caption. I react a little negatively (wanting to see stove performance improve and believing
biochar reduces the carbon footprint), but there is no doubt that black carbon (soot) has a global warming effect. Traditional char-making which is only venting (not flaring) the pyrolysis gases is also adding to global warming. And as long as forests are
disappearing (as they are in Kenya), this also adds to global warming.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I have no problems with the next two summary statements, which were surely part of the panel discussions (thankfully). But, as I am trying here to point out - making charcoal in a
home stove setting has many advantages to the user and society (who should be offering incentives to do that). I wish the panel had someone to advance char-making stoves - but I found the overall panel to be mostly talking about the right things - the stove
world needs much help.</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Ron</b></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px"><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Though new to the local market, ethanol has gained wide use in Mozambique because it is clean and efficient, comparable to LPG. CleanStar Ventures has conducted market research primarily
in urban households that confirms the convenience and safety of ethanol.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p><p class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The Kenya Forestry Service (KFS), the Kenya Forestry Research Institute (Kefri), and ICRAF, among others, are working with farmers on managing trees for woodfuel. They promote the
harvesting of mature stems, growing of acacia trees for charcoal and managing trees in drylands.</span></p><div class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
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