<div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div>Ron:</div><div><br></div><div>Since you asked me specifically, October is when a new US government budget takes effect. DJT has submitted a blueprint of MAGA budget. Foundations will need to make up for money and hire the fired, if any. <br><br>I wrote "off-topic" because the news release headline was a put-off. All conferences "<a href="https://now.uiowa.edu/2017/04/ui-hosts-conference-save-millions-lives-globally">to save millions of lives globally</a>" are worth no more than smoke (some smoke can be pleasant, intoxicating, medicinal). <br><br></div><div>You are correct, I did mean to disparage the "smoke" theme. A university press release claiming WHO estimates <b>CO2</b> is among the pollutants "released while burning biomass lead to 4 million deaths annually" shows the bankruptcy of academia. <br></div><div><br></div><div>You and I may be in agreement about the substantive significance of Udaykumar's work. </div><div><br></div><div>I know something of his <a href="https://www.thesolutionsjournal.com/article/how-a-simple-inexpensive-device-makes-a-three-stone-hearth-as-efficient-as-an-improved-cookstove/">past</a> work. Then too the UI press release had hyper-ridiculous headline - <a href="https://now.uiowa.edu/2015/12/small-metal-grate-makes-big-impact-environment-health">Insert for traditional cookstoves found to decrease global warming, prevent premature deaths."</a><br><br>Yeah, right. Premature deaths CANNOT BE PREVENTED. They are not specific, individual deaths. By definition, there will always be premature deaths; only the risk factors and YLL (Years of lives lost) will change. <br><br>And any claims of "found to decrease global warming" are beyond ridicule. <br><br>Just ask Kirk Smith and Tami Bond. <br><br>*************</div><div><br></div><div>Udaykumar and team had a nice paper then, exposing the well-worn mis-statements of the "improved woodstoves" advocates on India. The sub-head was rather annoying - "<a href="https://www.thesolutionsjournal.com/article/how-a-simple-inexpensive-device-makes-a-three-stone-hearth-as-efficient-as-an-improved-cookstove/">Simple, Inexpensive Device Makes a Three-Stone Hearth as Efficient as an Improved Cookstove</a> - because the term "improved cookstove" is inane. (Kirk Smith asked in ~2011 that the term be retired.)<br><br>I hope you like the paper. The villages mentioned are in the region I spent childhood in - on the other side of the forest - . </div><div><br></div><div>Udaykumar's team did what Cecil asks -- they OBSERVED the process of cooking. Those who care for cooks must be liberated from the WHO dogma and fantasies, and police silly claims in press releases.</div><div><br></div><div>*****************<br>Now the new paper you mention, which I will try to download. </div><div><br></div><div>The abstract is pleasant. These conclusions could have been reached decades ago, if only stove experts had done their homework in understanding the cooks. </div><div><br></div><div>The question is, what do these authors base their conclusions on and how do they propose pulling the faithful away from the dogma? </div><div><br></div><div>After 40 years, I still don't see light at the end of the tunnel. You may call me what you like but I am not an "antagonistic pessimist". <br><br>I just spent 26 days in a remote rural part of India. The nearest village - Suryamaal - was smaller than Karech and the nearest town Wada comparable to Gogunda. (I was 300 km south from my home while Udaykumar's study area about 300 km north; mountainous, forested, etc.) <br><br>I agree with their abstract, <b>"targeting this device for obsolescence has profound implications that cannot be reduced to energy consumption or environmental hazards." <br></b><br>My view for at least 25 years; I don't know why you think you and I have opposite views.</div><div><br>So much for the TC 285 exercise in pursuit of 90% emission reductions and your quarrels about fuel efficiency calculations in WBT. Not dispositive of the basic question -- what would make a stove usable? By which cooks and where, when?<b><br><br>"Searching for a middle ground requires stepping back from the dogma of efforts to improve biomass cook-stoves."<br><br></b>Amen. I hear Cecil's echo.<b><br></b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div>I wrote a suggestion about what could be done in the next four months but rather than attacking my idea, my post was censored. Perhaps you, Crispin and I could do that offline. Middle ground of minds, not monies.</div><div><br></div><div>Nikhil</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Nikhil Desai<div><a href="tel:+91%2090999%2052080" value="+919099952080" target="_blank">+91 909 995 2080</a></div><div>Skype: nikhildesai888</div></div><div><br>On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:56 AM, "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>List, cc Nikhil (and Crispin because it seems this was intended for him primarily)</div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1. This conference seems one I am now likely to attend. I especially want to hear Kirk Smith. This is a non-fee conference. I see no justification for this thread being labeled “off-topic”.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2. The reason is not because of the conference notice that Nikhil sent on the 5th. Rather it is the statement on the Conference page (<a href="https://now.uiowa.edu/2017/04/ui-hosts-conference-save-millions-lives-globally" target="_blank">https://now.uiowa.edu/2017/04<wbr>/ui-hosts-conference-save-mill<wbr>ions-lives-globally</a>) mentioning a recent paper by the same UI staff putting on this conference - to be found at</div><div><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X15309566" target="_blank">http://www.sciencedirect.com/s<wbr>cience/article/pii/S0305750X15<wbr>309566</a> </div><div><br></div><div>Elsevier, World Development, V<a class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310S_C_volIss" title="Go to table of contents for this volume/issue" href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/0305750X/92/supp/C" style="color:rgb(49,108,157);border:0px;font-size:13px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;font-family:arial,helvetica,"lucida sans unicode","microsoft sans serif","segoe ui symbol",stixgeneral,"cambria math","arial unicode ms",sans-serif;font-variant-ligatures:normal;text-align:center;word-spacing:-1.01118px;background-color:rgb(249,251,252)" target="_blank">olume 92</a><span style="color:rgb(46,46,46);font-family:arial,helvetica,"lucida sans unicode","microsoft sans serif","segoe ui symbol",stixgeneral,"cambria math","arial unicode ms",sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;text-align:center;word-spacing:-1.01118px;background-color:rgb(249,251,252)">, April 2017, Pages 13–27</span></div><div><span style="font-family:advepstim;font-size:17pt"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:advepstim;font-size:17pt">Why Have Improved Cook-Stove Initiatives in India Failed?</span></div><div><div class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310page" title="Page 2"><div class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310layoutArea"><div class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310column"><p><span style="font-size:17pt;font-family:advepstim"></span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">MEENA KHANDELWAL </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">, MATTHEW E. HILL JR. </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">, PAUL GREENOUGH </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">, JERRY ANTHONY </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">, </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">MISHA QUILL </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">b</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">, MARC LINDERMAN </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">and H.S. UDAYKUMAR </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;color:rgb(0,128,174);vertical-align:5pt">a</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;vertical-align:5pt">,* </span></p><p><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;vertical-align:5pt">a </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">University of Iowa, USA, </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim;vertical-align:5pt">b </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:advepstim">Cornell College, USA</span></p><p><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advpstim">Summary. </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:"advtt5843c571+20"">— </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">An estimated 2.7 billion people cook meals on biomass-fueled brick, stone, and clay stoves. Scarcity of wood and negative
impacts on health and environment have motivated efforts to design and distribute ‘‘improved</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advnewpstim">” </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">cook-stoves in developing countries. In
India, adoption is limited despite massive promotion over many decades. Existing research suggests that many rural women in India do
not want improved stoves, and those who do face obstacles to adoption. We step back from the many good case studies to examine the
broader story of improved cook-stoves (ICs) in India. We do so by bringing together technical research of applied science and narrative
critique of social science. Rather than assuming a priori that traditional stoves require replacement, we ask why Indian cook-stoves been
a magnet for so much attention, why adoptions rates have remained low, and what lessons might be learned from a broad, multi-
disciplinary perspective. Our approach is critical and reflexive, given our own involvement in IC efforts, and puts gender at the center.
Our ‘‘big picture</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advnewpstim">” </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">review shows that the Indian chulha, for all its problems, is a remarkably successful technology which also satisfies
several important household needs. Hence, targeting this device for obsolescence has profound implications that cannot be reduced to
energy consumption or environmental hazards. Rural women do not prioritize ICs, but addressing their priorities requires either capital-
intensive investment or challenging powerful institutions. In contrast, IC interventions are relatively cheap, decentralized, mechanical
and seemingly apolitical, hence their popularity in development programs. Our review of chulha research leads us to reject both the opti-
mism of development planners who frame such problems as technical and the antagonistic pessimism of their critics. Searching for a
middle ground requires stepping back from the dogma of efforts to improve biomass cook-stoves.
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<div class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310column"><p><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advpssym">! </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">2016 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.<br>
</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">Keywords </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:advepstim">— India, improved cookstove, technology, gender, history </span></p>
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</div></div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3. Fortunately this paper (with-fee, released this month) is available free for some of us through Research Gate. So no need to go to a library and I was able to finish it today. It is one of the best stove papers I have ever read (and I have probably read over a hundred). This is the reason I will try to make the Conference - next week. This Iowa group has done their stove homework. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>4. Although an outstanding paper, I think (not being sure being my reason to attend) the Iowa authors are (or were) unaware of charcoal-making stoves. I will expand on this after I read the paper again, and more so if I attend. Anyone else read the paper and have comments?</div><div><br></div><div><span class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>5. I ask Nikhil to explain his “Come October” comment immediately below. The rest of the three part exchange between Nikhil and Crispin seems intended to disparage the conference “smoke” theme, and the paper behind the conference. I’d appreciate their thoughts on the paper.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Apr 6, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Crispin:<br><br></div>Conferences are for Going Up in Smoke.<br><br></div>With the right fuel and fire.<br><br></div><div>Come October.<br></div><div><br></div>Nikhil<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail-m_9189209092100031217m_-562306449952617310gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">(India <a href="tel:+91%2090999%2052080" value="+919099952080" target="_blank">+91) 909 995 2080</a><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 10:23 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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Dear Nikhil</div>
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That is going to be a pretty strange conference. If CO2 is now 'pollution' and not the result of perfect biomass combustion what performance targets will we now seek?</div>
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If they don't know the difference between an attribution of a contribution to a premature death and what is written on a death certificate, they are in for a shock. </div>
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I have been made aware of a new tense in the English language. The idea that CO2 is thought by the WHO to be a cause of death of thousands of children is stated in the 'future hopeful' tense. </div>
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The 'future hopeful' tense </div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div>