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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Dear Ranyee,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your answer.<br>
<br>
<i>"</i><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
thought that I had answered the questions already in my
previous e-mails, but happy to clarify."</span></i><br>
Actually, my questions weren't answered by your previous emails,
and they are also not answered by this one.<br>
My questions are the following:<br>
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<ul>
<li>what is the budget of the Round Robin Testing?<br>
<span style="mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman""></span></li>
<li><span style="mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New
Roman";mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman"">is there a document, like a report, which
presents and describes the Round Robin Testing (other than
the ETHOS presentation)?</span></li>
<li>
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<!--StartFragment--><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:
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New Roman"">when did the RRT start, and when do you
expect it to finish?</span></li>
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<!--StartFragment--><span style="mso-fareast-font-family:
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New Roman"">"The agreement that the testing centers
made when making plans for the RRT is that participating
centers would not be shared". Shouldn't the origin of the
testing data be shared? Can we still know which organization
is coordinating/managing the RRT?<o:p></o:p></span>
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<p>Now, to reply to your last email:<br>
</p>
<ul>
</ul>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><b><i>"This
means that we are not promoting any particular protocol. In
fact, we provide <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/protocols.html">links
to multiple testing-related resources from many
organizations</a>."</i></b></span>
<ul>
</ul>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><font
color="#000000">Yes, indeed, and on top of these links and at
the head of the page is the link to the WBT, that has been
proved to be by far the most flawed of all protocols. This is
a concern.</font><b><i><br>
</i></b></span><br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><b><i> "In
particular, my suggestions for how to help improve testing
protocols are to 1) <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/standards/how-to-participate.html">join
the ISO working groups</a>, review the current drafts, and
propose specific changes"<br>
</i></b><font color="#000000"> I haven't been able to join so
far. I had not answer from the AFNOR, and wrote to them </font></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><font
color="#000000"><span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><font color="#000000">again</font></span>, so I
can join the TC 285.</font></span><br>
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<![endif]--><!--StartFragment--><!--EndFragment--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><b><i>"The
most helpful thing for others would be to try out the RRT
instructions and add your data to strengthen the analysis."<o:p></o:p></i></b></span>
<br>
<span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p>But before being involved in a
project, we need to know what the project is about, what is
the methodology, and what it tries to achieve. We have </o:p></span><span
style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p><font
color="#000000"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">almost </span>no
information on the RRT project now. What is the methodology?
What will the GACC do with the data collected? How can this
data help us learn anything on how to improve stove
protocols, or the way we do testing?</font><br>
</o:p></span><br>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><b><i>"In
particular, my suggestions for how to help improve testing
protocols are to contribute data to the Round Robin Testing
exercise."<br>
</i></b><font color="#000000">How do you expect this to
happen? How does the data from the RRT will help improving the
protocols at large?</font><b><i><br>
<br>
</i></b></span> <span style="font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><b><i>"the agreement was that people would share data
within this group as a way to help this group to improve.
So that is our primary focus."<br>
</i></b><font color="#000000"> So you mean the main goal of
the round robin testing is mainly to improve the way the RKTCs
operate, rather than to improve the protocols (this is what
Frank seems to think)?</font></span><br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Xavier<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/14/17 06:23, Ranyee Chiang wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Dear
Xavier and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I
thought that I had answered the questions already in my
previous e-mails, but happy to clarify. I’m including the
text of a message that I sent previously, with additional
clarifications. I think it will also be helpful for
everyone to remember we all agree that there is important
work to do, so hopefully that can collaborative tone can
come through in how we all communicate together. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">“We
all recognize that there is room to improve, and that is
already the starting motivation for ongoing work by many
people. There are protocol improvements that are in
progress and in discussion, which will be published as soon
as they are complete.” <b><i>This means that we are not
promoting any particular protocol. In fact, we provide
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/protocols.html">links
to multiple testing-related resources from many
organizations</a>. As soon as new protocols are
completed, we will add those to the website list. And
we know that all protocols can be improved, harmonized,
and that this needs to be a group effort. And that is
happening. The ongoing ISO process is designed to bring
together experts with different perspectives into one
discussion, and that has already led to quite a few
updates that those not participating may not be aware
of.<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">“Many
RTKCs also participated in a recent round robin testing
exercise, with the results supporting how we improve testing
methodology and how testing centers establish quality
assurance plans. Thanks to the dozens of people who have
been contributing their time and expertise over the last few
years.” <b><i>The biggest challenge now is that there
isn’t enough data to make many conclusions. That’s a
limiting factor and also why there’s such little detail
in the presentation from ETHOS. When RTKCs came
together to develop the Round Robin Testing plan, the
agreement was that people would share data within this
group as a way to help this group to improve. So that
is our primary focus. There are ongoing discussions
amongst the participating testing centers about the
details of the results and implications. We are also
still getting data from additional testing centers. The
most helpful thing for others would be to try out the
RRT instructions and add your data to strengthen the
analysis.<o:p></o:p></i></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">“We
will continue to work with RTKCs to improve methods,
testing, and data sharing. For those people who have not
been as active in this global collaboration, we continue to
invite people to contribute to the ISO discussions, to
contribute data to the Round Robin Testing effort, and to
contribute data to the Clean Cooking Catalog so that we can
continue our analyses on the strengths and areas for
improvement.” <b><i>If anyone would like to join the
ongoing collaborations to improve protocols or using the
protocols at testing centers, please contact me directly
and separately from the listserv. Because there are so
many conversations on the listserv and they’re meant as
group messages, it’s easier to track personal e-mails
that are sent to individuals. In particular, my
suggestions for how to help improve testing protocols
are to 1) <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/standards/how-to-participate.html">join
the ISO working groups</a>, review the current drafts,
and propose specific changes and 2) contribute data to
the Round Robin Testing exercise. <o:p></o:p></i></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Best
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Ranyee<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Xavier Brandao [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com">mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 13, 2017 12:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ranyee Chiang <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:rchiang@cleancookstoves.org"><rchiang@cleancookstoves.org></a>;
Leslie Cordes <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:lcordes@cleancookstoves.org"><lcordes@cleancookstoves.org></a>;
Neeraja Penumetcha <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:npenumetcha@cleancookstoves.org"><npenumetcha@cleancookstoves.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Advocacy action: ask the GACC
to stop promoting the WBT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">Dear
Ranyee,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">It seems
neither you nor anyone at the GACC wish to reply to the
questions I sent in my previous emails. It is a shame,
because I think these are simple, straightforward questions,
and they are simple to answer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">I
understood the GACC was committed to the highest standards
of transparency and accountability.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">But there
exist little to no information about the round robin
testing, nor how the GACC plans to address the many issues
related to stove testing, issues raised by numerous studies.
I read the ETHOS presentation about the round robin testing,
it leaves most of my questions unanswered.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">There is
an urgent need to talk about these issues, work on
solutions, and again, this has to be done in other spaces
than just the ISO TC 285. There is a need for a strong
effort, and we are waiting for the GACC voice on that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">Given
what is at stake, policies for 3 billion people, openness is
crucial.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">This is
exactly what is very well said by a recently published
article of Nature:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nature.com/news/energy-scientists-must-show-their-workings-1.21517">http://www.nature.com/news/energy-scientists-must-show-their-workings-1.21517</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">"Closed
systems hide and perpetuate mistakes." it says.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">WBT
mistakes have been perpetuated for years.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">In other
sectors, things are moving. The mayors of Paris and London
are pushing for new evaluation systems allowing for reliable
information on car emissions, so we avoid something like
what happened with Volkswagen:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/paris-london-seoul-grade-cars-based-emissions">http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/paris-london-seoul-grade-cars-based-emissions</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">The ETHOS
presentation about the round robin testing is here:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ethoscon.com/pdf/ETHOS/ETHOS2017/Penumetcha.pdf">http://ethoscon.com/pdf/ETHOS/ETHOS2017/Penumetcha.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">According
to this presentation, the objectives of the RRT are to:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"> "Facilitate collaboration to establish high
quality testing and quality assurance procedures<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"> Ensure consistent and reliable methods and
results<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"> Provide resources and tools to diagnose and
troubleshoot issues in the future<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"> Demonstrate potential for high-quality
testing and evaluation services" <o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">We are
not sure how exactly these goals will be achieved. We don't
know where the RRT is starting from, where it is going to.
Just like the previous communications about the ISO TC 285:
we have an idea of how things are organized, but no idea of
the actual content, of what is actually being discussed, and
decided for the sector. This is a remark I made to you
Ranyee, I don't know if you remember, long ago, about the
GACC webinar on the TC 285, it might have been June 2015, I
think.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">The
goal of the RRT is to "Strengthen the sector (not focused on
individual testing centers, products, etc.)".<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">The
GACC is acting for and on behalf of the stove sector, but I
think the sector could have been more involved.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">I
understand that the GACC is working with its 22 Regional
Knowledge Testing Centers (RKTCs), but what I mean by
involvement of the sector does not mean only being asked to
provide data. I am talking about being truly consulted and
involved in shaping the methodology of the study. To be
involved in the decision-making process. It is about
bringing different views about state-of-the-art testing,
addressing real issues, and involving the top researchers on
the matters, like the ones who wrote the studies I quoted
earlier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">I
feel that instead of working on the issues brought by the
studies, the GACC is working on something else.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">Correct
me if I am wrong in my analysis or if I am missing
something. But I am not sure how actually the RRT will help
solve the questions we have. 22 RKTCs all around the globe
will do Water Boiling Tests for 3 different types of
cookstoves. A lot of data will be generated. But given the
very high variability and uncertainty of WBT results, and
the differences likely to occur in the way testing is
conducted from one testing center to another (plus the data
collected from other actors), how reliable will be the data
collected? Is it comparable at all? Is it usable at all?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">And what
about other test protocols?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;text-align:justify">Since
there is obviously very little will from the GACC to talk
openly or to support legitimate and collaborative efforts to
move forward, we will continue to discuss the matter, here
and in other spaces. We will do so directly with the
manufacturers, project implementers, large NGOs,
researchers, testing centers, humanitarian agencies,
funders, and various partners. We will keep openly
critiquing testing, collecting scientific work on this
matter, and will keep encouraging collaborative work. Anyone
is welcome to join, anytime.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto">Best
regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto">Xavier<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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