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Ron,<br>
<br>
A single controller (that does not allow for changing the ratio and
amount of air to PA and SA) is, by definition, unable to do that
task that I suggested needs to be researched.<br>
<br>
And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the Woodgas campstove
had 2 settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial with about 5 settings,
but no change of ratio.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E8896FF9-4C20-4499-8540-5D2DF5ACC418@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Paul, List and ccs:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well
I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday statement on only
needing a single controller (limiting fuels to the non-oily
variety) was incorrect. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This
is to hope we can have more discussion on this quite important
point. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years ago that used a
single air control. Anyone able to help?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s work.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Ron,<br
class="">
<br class="">
I disagree. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" class="">preferring to use one
controller for both is that the ratio of primary to
secondary should always be the same </blockquote>
The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be the
same. Even the different packing of the fuel in to the
TLUD can make primary air (PA) flow more easily, creating
more gases and needing a change in secondary air (SA) to
get optimal performance.<br class="">
<br class="">
Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of issues, with
automated adjustments. Just not practical yet for
cookstoves that need to be inexpensive. Bu who knows,
someday solid biomass as initial fuel could be pyrolyzed
and have the gases combusted in very controlled ways that
would seem like Science Fiction if said today. I believe
that it will be justified for the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but
not for the old-hat ICS stoves, including rockets.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively evaluated.
It was a demonstration that made its point but was not in
a way that could be into large numbers of stoves at that
time and still today. <br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal
W. Larson wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4652859A-0EBA-4E3B-9F2B-5534ACCB2745@comcast.net"
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Paul, cc Nathan and list</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
for bringing up the two subjects of a) separately
controlling secondary air, and b) oily (mostly seed?)
fuels.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree that we should be controlling secondary air, but
I am pretty sure that we should and can do this with
the same controller as for the primary air. Most
TLUDs already can and should control primary air, but
make no effort to control the secondary air. My
reason for preferring to use one controller for both
is that the ratio of primary to secondary should
always be the same if we want (or can live with) a
fixed ratio for excess air. One controller is
cheaper and is easier for the cook. Anyone disagree?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>On
the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am pretty sure
that we would need a larger amount of “secondary” air
than for non-oily fuels, but that there still could be
a single air controller (just with a larger SA/PA
ratio [ maybe goes from about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??].
Note that these oils cannot combust as they pass
through the hot charcoal above the downward moving
pyrolysis front (no oxygen in that stream). But I
presume the temperature is enough for them to arrive
above the char as quite a different set of gases. So,
I’d like to hear more about what Nathan found. Any
cite we can look up?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree with the rest of Paul’s comments. TLUDs are not
yet a mature technology - but it is growing up; it is
not standing still.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Paul
Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> To
all, 29 April 2017 [This
note contains some new content and explanations
for the advancement of TLUD stoves.]<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Ron: I and probably some others have
successfully used dung as the input fuel into
TLUDs. I am not recommending dung, but if it
is being burned, then a TLUD is preferred for
cleaner burning.<br class="">
<br class="">
2. AD: I agree with Ron that the TLUD stoves
are better with both light and hard (heavy) wood
than direct burning of them in any
direct-burning (ICS) stove.<br class="">
<br class="">
3. Main point, to Neil and all: TLUDs are not
burning wood directly. TLUDs turn wood into
gases. THEN the gases are burned. So poplar,
maple, maize cobs, dung, etc. are ALL becoming
gases first. THEN the burning of those gases
might be somewhat different (but not as much as
the direct burning of those diverse fuels). <br
class="">
<br class="">
TLUD stoves are just arriving into their
"young-adult stage." In contrast: not
infancy, not childhood, maybe still "youth", but
certainly not full maturity, and a long way
from the "old age" of the ICS "Inproved or
Inadequate" direct-burning cookstoves. This is
because we are still learning about better and
better ways of mixing the combustible gases
with the incoming secondary air (SA) (This is
where the BURNING takes place to make the heat
that goes to the pot. TLUDs are DIRECTLY
burning GASES, not solid fuels. ) (Please see
my "Classification of Stove Technology and
Fuels" documents (1-page and 4-page versions)
at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/">http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/</a>
)<br class="">
<br class="">
The <u class="">solid </u>wood and dung etc
are an intermediate stage of the fuel. Sort of
a "storage" stage. Then pyrolysis "transforms
solids into gases plus charcoal". The created
gases are then burned SEPARATELY (by centimeters
and seconds, but certainly separately) from
where the gases were created. We do not have
clear terminology for this, in layman's terms.
The closest might be "gas burning stoves that
make their own gases." <br class="">
<br class="">
So, what development is happening in the early
"young-adult" stage? Control of primary air,
learning about solid "intermediate" fuels, and
improving combustion of the gases, as well as
"new clothes" with sizes and mateials. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Consider this: We have known of FA (forced air
or fan assisted) TLUD stoves from the 1990s.
And there has been much progress. But NO TLUD
on the market has SEPARATE controls for
"variable flows" of primary air (PA) and
secondary air (SA). THAT control is what will
make the difference regarding Neil's initial
question that pointed to differences in the
initial fuels (and therefore differences in the
resultant gases and quantities of gases that are
being burned.) <br class="">
<br class="">
Note that TLUDs can be made with different flows
of PA ans SA by changing the sizes and number of
holes. That is a form of "tuning" the TLUD for
a specific fuel. This works great for one
initial fuel, but only good but acceptable with
other fringe fuels. I am NOT referring to that
work as being "variable flows". I am referring
to when the user can change the flows, even
during one batch of fuel.<br class="">
<br class="">
There has been some researach (mostly unreported
and set aside) on variable control of primary
and secondary air, using fans. I have
experimented several times. The
"million-dollar-grants" have had laboratory
equipment with controlled and measured separate
air flows. Nathan Puffer did it when we were
looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a fuel. Seeds give
off additional gases from the vaporization (not
pyrolysis) of combustible vegetable oils
(carbohydrates), which are much more plentiful
in seeds than in stems and branches and leaves,
thereby overwhelming the insufficient supply of
SA in a "regular" TLUD-FA. <br class="">
<br class="">
There is a good reason to not have separate
control of PA and SA. That reason is the user,
the cook. To need to "dial-in" the right flow
of SA (assuming PA flow stays the same) is, for
the most part and for most non-scientist cooks,
an extra task that could easily be done
incorrectly. And there are the financial
reasons of increased cost and maintenance. <br
class="">
<br class="">
But with "separate air-flow control" (not an
established term and NOT justifying an acronym
like SAC, as in TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone could
put many very different initial fuels into a
TLUD and have greater control of the burning of
the gases. <br class="">
<br class="">
More work is needed before TLUD stoves can reach
their full potential, while growing in
"young-adulthood". Today (2017), maybe 40% of
what can be known about TLUD stoves is now known
(but not necessarily put into practice by stove
manufacturers). <br class="">
<br class="">
(This note is being placed at the EPosts section
of my website <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a>
so that it can be accessed continually instead
of only one time on the Stove Listserv.) <br
class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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