<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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Todd,<br>
<br>
I remember studying the rotating plate with the differnct sizes of
holes. <br>
<br>
How does the different size of hole send more air to SA or less to
PA? What splits the air flows? Or is a smaller hole just letting
less air enter? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/1/2017 10:33 AM, Todd Albi wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAE3shSPeL0fS8u1H_a8UE8AikJmiFkN4c_frA_m0pykUQaQnFg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div dir="ltr">Paul:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are 2 screws that hold the fan assembly control box
to front of stove. The air control is all mechanical, except
for the actual fan. You can remove the stove assembly box and
inspect the rear air couplers that insert into stove body.
The knob on the fan assembly rotates a metal plate with
different size orifices that adjusts SA &PA mixing. It
has no impact on the fan speed control, just ventilation
ratios. The fan speed control is adjusted with the optional
PWM that plugs inline between 12 volt DC cord and the box.
The PWM is interrupting the electrical signal and adjusts the
fan speed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have a local city mechanic who pulls their bucket truck
and forklift bearings with this stove. We restores antique
British bikes on weekends. He throws a metal plate on top of
the stove and sets bearings on top to heat and release.
Recently he showed me a photo of an old Triumph head on the
heated plate, where in the photo the outer fins of the motor
cycle were gray and the two cylinders closest to the flame
were cherry red at exactly at 500 degrees Fahrenheit for
extraction. He loves the PWM for fine tune control. He also
uses the stove to melt lead for shooting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is our favorite large party wok stove, due to its
tremendous fire power in a small portable forced air stove
design. It is capable of stir frying meat or vegetables for
large groups very quickly, or reduced to low fire power
cooking with the PWM option.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove">http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove</a> <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Todd Albi, SilverFire</div>
<div><img src="cid:part2.87B31259.5850AAB1@ilstu.edu"
height="56" width="444"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Paul
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Todd,<br>
<br>
For those who are not familiar with the mentioned Super
Dragon TLUD stove, it can be seen at <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove"
target="_blank">http://www.silverfire.us/<wbr>super-dragon-fan-stove</a>
<br>
<br>
There is a single knob. How does that knob change the
RATIO between the primary air and secondary air (PA and
SA)? It is for speed control. And the PWM is also for
speed control. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_914875371268085049moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_914875371268085049moz-cite-prefix">On
5/1/2017 12:48 AM, Todd Albi wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ron & Paul:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What exactly point are you making? We have a
single ventilation knob control on our Super Dragon
TLUD fan stove we have been selling since 2012. It
has a single knob that adjusts both primary and
secondary air, and is available with an optional
pulse width modulator (fan speed control). Paul has
one of these fan stove units, <i>minus the
important fan speed control.</i> He never
purchased the inline fan speed control (option) for
the stove (only the stove) and he only can control
primary & secondary mixing. That means he
cannot maximize low and high fire power cooking
control. The capacity to adjust primary and
secondary air and fan speed both are very important.
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The high fire power with out the PWM allows for
intense wok cooking, and by reducing the electronic
signal with the optional PWM, means canning, waffle
making or gourmet salt block grilling are possible.
The fan speed control (allows high & low fire
power cooking). Density of fuel is going to result
is longer duration of burns in any type of stove
(natural draft, fan, rocket or TLUD). We find that
a force fan stove is going to override ventilation
inside the combustion chamber to some degree, since
air mixing is obviously increased. This is despite
how combustion chamber was packed, since combustion
is accelerated with a force air fan. Density of
fuel is going to impact combustion.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We also offer a TLUD forced fan grill that has 5
fan settings (speeds), but no has air mixing
control. The point of the unit is to maximize high
temperature searing, due to high cooking
temperatures involved, not achievable with standard
BBQ grill, that typically only reach 1/2 the
grilling temperatures the forced fan grill reaches.
The point is that different stove designs impact the
cuisine and type of specific cooking you desire.
Biomass stove designs vary significantly and have
multiple pros and cons, depending on the outcome you
are trying to achieve (cuisine, fuel use, etc...).
Stove design choice is most important, not hanging
your hat on a specific stove design (rocket stove,
TLUD, Force Fan stove, or any other design).
Different types of stove designs when used together,
can also complement each other.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example a natural draft rocket stove used in
unison with a natural draft TLUD may be ideal, with
the former used to cook your breakfast quickly,
while a large a large water bath used for sanitizing
drinking water or cookware can sit unattended on the
TLUD for long durations, may be ideal in an outdoor
kitchen application, using natural draft stoves.
Fan stoves are going to accommodate larger groups of
folks, or increase speed of food preparation, if
desired. Each stove design has practical
application and merits for the outcome desired. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Todd Albi, SilverFire</div>
<div><img src="cid:part8.B842200B.F21F357C@ilstu.edu"
height="56" width="444"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:14
PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Paul and ccs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
guess I don’t understand “<i>that task that I
suggested needs to be researched.” </i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i> <span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></i>I
contend that changing fuel density should not
be an influential property. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to
change the SA/PA ratio a tad for different
fuels. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks
for reminding that the Mini Moto designers
seem to be in agreement with me.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul
Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Ron,<br>
<br>
A single controller (that does not allow
for changing the ratio and amount of air
to PA and SA) is, by definition, unable
to do that task that I suggested needs
to be researched.<br>
<br>
And there certainly are SINGLE controls
since the Woodgas campstove had 2
settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial
with about 5 settings, but no change of
ratio.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-cite-prefix">On
4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Paul, List and ccs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Well
I haven’t heard a reason why my
yesterday statement on only needing
a single controller (limiting fuels
to the non-oily variety) was
incorrect. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This
is to hope we can have more
discussion on this quite important
point. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a
few years ago that used a single air
control. Anyone able to help?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
don’t know anything about Nathan
Puffer’s work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM,
Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"> Ron,<br>
<br>
I disagree. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">preferring
to use one controller for
both is that the ratio of
primary to secondary should
always be the same </blockquote>
The point is that the ratio is
NOT to always be the same.
Even the different packing of
the fuel in to the TLUD can
make primary air (PA) flow
more easily, creating more
gases and needing a change in
secondary air (SA) to get
optimal performance.<br>
<br>
Automobiles have sensors for
all kinds of issues, with
automated adjustments. Just
not practical yet for
cookstoves that need to be
inexpensive. Bu who knows,
someday solid biomass as
initial fuel could be
pyrolyzed and have the gases
combusted in very controlled
ways that would seem like
Science Fiction if said
today. I believe that it will
be justified for the
woodgas/TLUD stoves, but not
for the old-hat ICS stoves,
including rockets.<br>
<br>
Nathan Puffer''s work was not
quantitatively evaluated. It
was a demonstration that made
its point but was not in a way
that could be into large
numbers of stoves at that time
and still today. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-cite-prefix">On
4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W.
Larson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Paul, cc Nathan and
list</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks
for bringing up the two
subjects of a) separately
controlling secondary air,
and b) oily (mostly seed?)
fuels.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
agree that we should be
controlling secondary air,
but I am pretty sure that
we should and can do this
with the same controller
as for the primary air.
Most TLUDs already can and
should control primary
air, but make no effort to
control the secondary air.
My reason for preferring
to use one controller for
both is that the ratio of
primary to secondary
should always be the same
if we want (or can live
with) a fixed ratio for
excess air. One
controller is cheaper and
is easier for the cook.
Anyone disagree?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On
the subject of using
Jaropha seeds, I am
pretty sure that we would
need a larger amount of
“secondary” air than for
non-oily fuels, but that
there still could be a
single air controller
(just with a larger SA/PA
ratio [ maybe goes from
about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??].
Note that these oils
cannot combust as they
pass through the hot
charcoal above the
downward moving pyrolysis
front (no oxygen in that
stream). But I presume
the temperature is enough
for them to arrive above
the char as quite a
different set of gases.
So, I’d like to hear more
about what Nathan found.
Any cite we can look up?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
agree with the rest of
Paul’s comments. TLUDs
are not yet a mature
technology - but it is
growing up; it is not
standing still.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 29, 2017, at
8:14 AM, Paul Anderson
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"> To
all,
29 April 2017
[This note contains
some new content and
explanations for the
advancement of TLUD
stoves.]<br>
<br>
1. Ron: I and
probably some others
have successfully
used dung as the
input fuel into
TLUDs. I am not
recommending dung,
but if it is being
burned, then a TLUD
is preferred for
cleaner burning.<br>
<br>
2. AD: I agree
with Ron that the
TLUD stoves are
better with both
light and hard
(heavy) wood than
direct burning of
them in any
direct-burning (ICS)
stove.<br>
<br>
3. Main point, to
Neil and all:
TLUDs are not
burning wood
directly. TLUDs
turn wood into
gases. THEN the
gases are burned.
So poplar, maple,
maize cobs, dung,
etc. are ALL
becoming gases
first. THEN the
burning of those
gases might be
somewhat different
(but not as much as
the direct burning
of those diverse
fuels). <br>
<br>
TLUD stoves are just
arriving into their
"young-adult
stage." In
contrast: not
infancy, not
childhood, maybe
still "youth", but
certainly not full
maturity, and a long
way from the "old
age" of the ICS
"Inproved or
Inadequate"
direct-burning
cookstoves. This is
because we are still
learning about
better and better
ways of mixing the
combustible gases
with the incoming
secondary air (SA)
(This is where the
BURNING takes place
to make the heat
that goes to the
pot. TLUDs are
DIRECTLY burning
GASES, not solid
fuels. ) (Please
see my
"Classification of
Stove Technology and
Fuels" documents
(1-page and 4-page
versions) at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/"
target="_blank">http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/<wbr>11/classification-stove-techno<wbr>logies-fuels/</a>
)<br>
<br>
The <u>solid </u>wood
and dung etc are an
intermediate stage
of the fuel. Sort
of a "storage"
stage. Then
pyrolysis
"transforms solids
into gases plus
charcoal". The
created gases are
then burned
SEPARATELY (by
centimeters and
seconds, but
certainly
separately) from
where the gases were
created. We do not
have clear
terminology for
this, in layman's
terms. The closest
might be "gas
burning stoves that
make their own
gases." <br>
<br>
So, what development
is happening in the
early "young-adult"
stage? Control of
primary air,
learning about solid
"intermediate"
fuels, and improving
combustion of the
gases, as well as
"new clothes" with
sizes and mateials.
<br>
<br>
Consider this: We
have known of FA
(forced air or fan
assisted) TLUD
stoves from the
1990s. And there
has been much
progress. But NO
TLUD on the market
has SEPARATE
controls for
"variable flows" of
primary air (PA) and
secondary air
(SA). THAT control
is what will make
the difference
regarding Neil's
initial question
that pointed to
differences in the
initial fuels (and
therefore
differences in the
resultant gases and
quantities of gases
that are being
burned.) <br>
<br>
Note that TLUDs can
be made with
different flows of
PA ans SA by
changing the sizes
and number of
holes. That is a
form of "tuning" the
TLUD for a specific
fuel. This works
great for one
initial fuel, but
only good but
acceptable with
other fringe fuels.
I am NOT referring
to that work as
being "variable
flows". I am
referring to when
the user can change
the flows, even
during one batch of
fuel.<br>
<br>
There has been some
researach (mostly
unreported and set
aside) on variable
control of primary
and secondary air,
using fans. I have
experimented several
times. The
"million-dollar-grants"
have had laboratory
equipment with
controlled and
measured separate
air flows. Nathan
Puffer did it when
we were looking at
Jatropha SEEDS as a
fuel. Seeds give
off additional gases
from the
vaporization (not
pyrolysis) of
combustible
vegetable oils
(carbohydrates),
which are much more
plentiful in seeds
than in stems and
branches and leaves,
thereby overwhelming
the insufficient
supply of SA in a
"regular" TLUD-FA. <br>
<br>
There is a good
reason to not have
separate control of
PA and SA. That
reason is the user,
the cook. To need
to "dial-in" the
right flow of SA
(assuming PA flow
stays the same) is,
for the most part
and for most
non-scientist cooks,
an extra task that
could easily be done
incorrectly. And
there are the
financial reasons of
increased cost and
maintenance. <br>
<br>
But with "separate
air-flow control"
(not an established
term and NOT
justifying an
acronym like SAC, as
in TLUD-SAC), Neil
or anyone could put
many very different
initial fuels into a
TLUD and have
greater control of
the burning of the
gases. <br>
<br>
More work is needed
before TLUD stoves
can reach their full
potential, while
growing in
"young-adulthood".
Today (2017), maybe
40% of what can be
known about TLUD
stoves is now known
(but not necessarily
put into practice by
stove
manufacturers). <br>
<br>
(This note is being
placed at the EPosts
section of my
website <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a> so
that it can be
accessed continually
instead of only one
time on the Stove
Listserv.) <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_<wbr>lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_914875371268085049moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.<wbr>org/</a>
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______________________________<wbr>_________________
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to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
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<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
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