<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Paul:</div><div><br></div><div>My "focus groups" question was not meant for you but for the collective of donors who have supported stoves work - and fuels work, as Tom Reed's - over the last 40 years. </div><div><br></div><div>A lot of problems in market-responsive product engineering of cookstoves are "humanoid" problems as Crispin wrote a couple of days ago. I think a lot many researchers did want to do "humanitarian" as well as "humanistic" engineering for cookstoves but their paymasters couldn't allow it. </div><div><br></div><div>Much of what still ails this idealist pursuit of "sustainable" fuels and "clean" cookstoves is that people have been virtually erased from product development. It helps make vague claims about saving forests and avoiding premature deaths, which is only an excuse to avoid looking at the cooks. </div><div><br></div><div>Many promoters have lost credibility and this is now a cause for collective rethinking so efforts like yours do not starve for money. Even if they were to fail, because that is how learning is gained. </div><div><br></div><div>I don't want to yet fault individual donors. I have been amply critical of US government and the governments of India and Britain. While I understand the bureaucratic constraints on program planning, I am also disappointed at the lack of imagination and understanding at the highest levels of incompetence. </div><div><br></div><div>I do have a few reference documents from the mid-1980s World Bank and miscellaneous US entities, also some articles of policy significance (UNDP, in the mid to late 1990s) and those in Boiling Point that Liz Bates painstakingly put out for years.</div><div><br></div><div>I may get around to rereading those to see what was promised or hypothesized then and how money stopped flowing or didn't expand till Hillary came along. </div><div><br></div><div>While "we" were of course responsible in not getting the "service standard" and the objective - pleasing the cook, improving the human environment - right, our paymasters failed to sustain a political momentum. </div><div><br></div><div>That's how we get the UNF - Gateses foundations interjecting WHO in the stoves business with the most ridiculous rationales of bettering human healths. (The Indian government has thrown out Gateses Foundation, for right reasons or wrong) and I would only be too glad if WHO, fronting for IHME and the Gateses, is asked to exit TC 285 of the ISO. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes for your work and others such who have had to make tough choices, </div><div><br>Nikhil </div><div><br>On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:48 PM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Nikhil, see below.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2017 9:57 AM, Nikhil Desai
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:2B8852EE-D021-4272-B01D-FF30F602E923@gmail.com" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>Paul and Ron:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Leaving efficiency aside, which kind of controls would help
regulate power and duration of cooking from the cook's
perspective, optimizing the use of her/his time and preferences
for timing and composition of meals?</div>
</blockquote>
I understand about controls, but my time now is focused on expanding
the number of TLUD stoves in use, and current designs are
appropriate for now. I am very short on available time.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:2B8852EE-D021-4272-B01D-FF30F602E923@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Are there some 200 "focus groups" for opinions input and
testing of new biomass cookstoves for different client
groupings?</div>
</blockquote>
Again, although what you mention is extremely important, right now
we have highly successful acceptance of the Champion woodgas TLUD
stove in West Bengal, that being ONE or a few "focus groups" that
need to be served well. The other 197 will be best served by seeing
the current great success story become even larger. (Major need
right now is some grants, loans and/or carbon credit purchases so
that we can get enough stoves into the field locations where there
are plenty of purchasers. Whatever amount comes in gets put to
prompt use.)<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:2B8852EE-D021-4272-B01D-FF30F602E923@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If not, what we have been doing might only win approvals from
pals and peers. <br>
</div>
</blockquote>
I have worked on TLUD stoves for over 16 years. The approvals are
from far more that pals and peers. And I do thank the pals and
peers for their support. Please continue.<br>
<br>
(end of my new content)<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:2B8852EE-D021-4272-B01D-FF30F602E923@gmail.com" type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At the GWU session in mid-January, GACC CEO had a poignant,
and entirely valid, comment about the evidence base for benefits
of clean cookstoves. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the present instance, I tend to side with Paul. I had a
very primitive introduction to air flow, combustion power and
duration, and different meals with different kinds of charcoal
stoves (with a kerosene stove for heating water and deep
frying). I imagine the ratio of primary to secondary air can
only be contextual. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not sure usable stoves must remain "inexpensive".
There's probably a serviceable market for stove-fuel
combinations of any kind, even those currently in Science
Fiction world. Just takes identifying the market. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Another thought toward Robert van der Plas' suggestion for
re-learning: find the cooks and foods, and characterize the
fuels and timing options. (In some parts of India, heating milk
seems to have declined in household stove use. Not an
insignificant change. Does SA/PA matter?)1</div>
<div><br>
Nikhil
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:03 AM, Paul Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Ron,<br>
<br>
I disagree. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">preferring to use one controller for
both is that the ratio of primary to secondary should always
be the same </blockquote>
The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be the same.
Even the different packing of the fuel in to the TLUD can make
primary air (PA) flow more easily, creating more gases and
needing a change in secondary air (SA) to get optimal
performance.<br>
<br>
Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of issues, with
automated adjustments. Just not practical yet for cookstoves
that need to be inexpensive. Bu who knows, someday solid
biomass as initial fuel could be pyrolyzed and have the gases
combusted in very controlled ways that would seem like Science
Fiction if said today. I believe that it will be justified
for the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but not for the old-hat ICS
stoves, including rockets.<br>
<br>
Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively evaluated. It
was a demonstration that made its point but was not in a way
that could be into large numbers of stoves at that time and
still today. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W.
Larson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:4652859A-0EBA-4E3B-9F2B-5534ACCB2745@comcast.net" type="cite">
<div class="">Paul, cc Nathan and list</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
for bringing up the two subjects of a) separately
controlling secondary air, and b) oily (mostly seed?)
fuels.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree that we should be controlling secondary air, but I
am pretty sure that we should and can do this with the
same controller as for the primary air. Most TLUDs
already can and should control primary air, but make no
effort to control the secondary air. My reason for
preferring to use one controller for both is that the
ratio of primary to secondary should always be the same if
we want (or can live with) a fixed ratio for excess air.
One controller is cheaper and is easier for the cook.
Anyone disagree?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>On
the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am pretty sure that
we would need a larger amount of “secondary” air than for
non-oily fuels, but that there still could be a single air
controller (just with a larger SA/PA ratio [ maybe goes
from about 6:1 up to 7:1 ??]. Note that these oils cannot
combust as they pass through the hot charcoal above the
downward moving pyrolysis front (no oxygen in that
stream). But I presume the temperature is enough for them
to arrive above the char as quite a different set of
gases. So, I’d like to hear more about what Nathan
found. Any cite we can look up?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree with the rest of Paul’s comments. TLUDs are not yet
a mature technology - but it is growing up; it is not
standing still.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM, Paul Anderson
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> To
all, 29 April 2017 [This note
contains some new content and explanations for the
advancement of TLUD stoves.]<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Ron: I and probably some others have
successfully used dung as the input fuel into
TLUDs. I am not recommending dung, but if it is
being burned, then a TLUD is preferred for cleaner
burning.<br class="">
<br class="">
2. AD: I agree with Ron that the TLUD stoves are
better with both light and hard (heavy) wood than
direct burning of them in any direct-burning (ICS)
stove.<br class="">
<br class="">
3. Main point, to Neil and all: TLUDs are not
burning wood directly. TLUDs turn wood into
gases. THEN the gases are burned. So poplar,
maple, maize cobs, dung, etc. are ALL becoming gases
first. THEN the burning of those gases might be
somewhat different (but not as much as the direct
burning of those diverse fuels). <br class="">
<br class="">
TLUD stoves are just arriving into their
"young-adult stage." In contrast: not infancy,
not childhood, maybe still "youth", but certainly
not full maturity, and a long way from the "old
age" of the ICS "Inproved or Inadequate"
direct-burning cookstoves. This is because we are
still learning about better and better ways of
mixing the combustible gases with the incoming
secondary air (SA) (This is where the BURNING takes
place to make the heat that goes to the pot. TLUDs
are DIRECTLY burning GASES, not solid fuels. )
(Please see my "Classification of Stove Technology
and Fuels" documents (1-page and 4-page versions)
at <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/">http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/</a>
)<br class="">
<br class="">
The <u class="">solid </u>wood and dung etc are an
intermediate stage of the fuel. Sort of a
"storage" stage. Then pyrolysis "transforms solids
into gases plus charcoal". The created gases are
then burned SEPARATELY (by centimeters and seconds,
but certainly separately) from where the gases were
created. We do not have clear terminology for this,
in layman's terms. The closest might be "gas
burning stoves that make their own gases." <br class="">
<br class="">
So, what development is happening in the early
"young-adult" stage? Control of primary air,
learning about solid "intermediate" fuels, and
improving combustion of the gases, as well as "new
clothes" with sizes and mateials. <br class="">
<br class="">
Consider this: We have known of FA (forced air or
fan assisted) TLUD stoves from the 1990s. And there
has been much progress. But NO TLUD on the market
has SEPARATE controls for "variable flows" of
primary air (PA) and secondary air (SA). THAT
control is what will make the difference regarding
Neil's initial question that pointed to differences
in the initial fuels (and therefore differences in
the resultant gases and quantities of gases that are
being burned.) <br class="">
<br class="">
Note that TLUDs can be made with different flows of
PA ans SA by changing the sizes and number of
holes. That is a form of "tuning" the TLUD for a
specific fuel. This works great for one initial
fuel, but only good but acceptable with other fringe
fuels. I am NOT referring to that work as being
"variable flows". I am referring to when the user
can change the flows, even during one batch of fuel.<br class="">
<br class="">
There has been some researach (mostly unreported and
set aside) on variable control of primary and
secondary air, using fans. I have experimented
several times. The "million-dollar-grants" have had
laboratory equipment with controlled and measured
separate air flows. Nathan Puffer did it when we
were looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a fuel. Seeds
give off additional gases from the vaporization (not
pyrolysis) of combustible vegetable oils
(carbohydrates), which are much more plentiful in
seeds than in stems and branches and leaves, thereby
overwhelming the insufficient supply of SA in a
"regular" TLUD-FA. <br class="">
<br class="">
There is a good reason to not have separate control
of PA and SA. That reason is the user, the cook.
To need to "dial-in" the right flow of SA (assuming
PA flow stays the same) is, for the most part and
for most non-scientist cooks, an extra task that
could easily be done incorrectly. And there are the
financial reasons of</div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote></body></html>