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Ron,<br>
<br>
I am disagreeing with you. My whole point in my original message is
that I think we will be able to make the woodgas TLUD-FA gasifiers
EVEN BETTER when we do not rely on a single fan arrangement that
does not let the user (or sensors) change those flows of PA and SA.
<br>
<br>
But for the time being, a single fan is doing a reasonable job, and
nobody seems to have time or funds to do research on a
"fine-tuning" change regarding changing PA / SA ratios and
strength. <br>
<br>
Right now we still face the major challenge of having the gasifier
stoves available into households that are still being told that
"improved" stoves (ICS) are good enough. To me and I hope to many
many others, "ICS" now now means "Inadequate" cookstoves or
"Inadequate cooking solutions." <br>
<br>
"Young adults" as people can do many worthwhile things (interesting
high school sports events and serious work in their initial
employments), and similarly "young adult" woodgas TLUD stoves can
cook meals very well, and with advantages over the ICS stoves. The
young adult TLUDs of today will mature more in the coming years.
But right now, they need the chance for "work experience" instead of
being shut out of the "scale-up" funding that continues to support
the "Inadeaquate" ICS cooking.<br>
<br>
(Note: I am looking for a million dollars for scale up of TLUD
woodgas stoves in a great ON-GOING project in India in 2017.
Lesser amounts would be fine. Contact me "off-list" or by phone if
you have some funds or prospects for funding.)<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2017 11:14 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8C725CEB-0C31-4F63-BB4E-DD67BD47BD8A@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div class="">Paul and ccs:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
guess I don’t understand “<i class="">that task that I suggested
needs to be researched.” </i></div>
<div class=""><i class=""><br class="">
</i></div>
<div class=""><i class=""> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></i>I
contend that changing fuel density should not be an influential
property. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to change the SA/PA
ratio a tad for different fuels. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
for reminding that the Mini Moto designers seem to be in
agreement with me.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Ron,<br
class="">
<br class="">
A single controller (that does not allow for changing the
ratio and amount of air to PA and SA) is, by definition,
unable to do that task that I suggested needs to be
researched.<br class="">
<br class="">
And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the Woodgas
campstove had 2 settings, and now Mimi-Moto has a dial
with about 5 settings, but no change of ratio.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal
W. Larson wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:E8896FF9-4C20-4499-8540-5D2DF5ACC418@comcast.net"
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Paul, List and ccs:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well
I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday statement on
only needing a single controller (limiting fuels to
the non-oily variety) was incorrect. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This
is to hope we can have more discussion on this quite
important point. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years ago that
used a single air control. Anyone able to help?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s work.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul
Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Ron,<br class="">
<br class="">
I disagree. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" class="">preferring to
use one controller for both is that the ratio
of primary to secondary should always be the
same </blockquote>
The point is that the ratio is NOT to always be
the same. Even the different packing of the
fuel in to the TLUD can make primary air (PA)
flow more easily, creating more gases and
needing a change in secondary air (SA) to get
optimal performance.<br class="">
<br class="">
Automobiles have sensors for all kinds of
issues, with automated adjustments. Just not
practical yet for cookstoves that need to be
inexpensive. Bu who knows, someday solid
biomass as initial fuel could be pyrolyzed and
have the gases combusted in very controlled ways
that would seem like Science Fiction if said
today. I believe that it will be justified for
the woodgas/TLUD stoves, but not for the old-hat
ICS stoves, including rockets.<br class="">
<br class="">
Nathan Puffer''s work was not quantitatively
evaluated. It was a demonstration that made
its point but was not in a way that could be
into large numbers of stoves at that time and
still today. <br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/29/2017 9:46
PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4652859A-0EBA-4E3B-9F2B-5534ACCB2745@comcast.net"
type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Paul, cc Nathan and list</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
for bringing up the two subjects of a)
separately controlling secondary air, and
b) oily (mostly seed?) fuels.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree that we should be controlling
secondary air, but I am pretty sure that we
should and can do this with the same
controller as for the primary air. Most
TLUDs already can and should control primary
air, but make no effort to control the
secondary air. My reason for preferring to
use one controller for both is that the
ratio of primary to secondary should always
be the same if we want (or can live with) a
fixed ratio for excess air. One controller
is cheaper and is easier for the cook.
Anyone disagree?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>On
the subject of using Jaropha seeds, I am
pretty sure that we would need a larger
amount of “secondary” air than for non-oily
fuels, but that there still could be a
single air controller (just with a larger
SA/PA ratio [ maybe goes from about 6:1 up
to 7:1 ??]. Note that these oils cannot
combust as they pass through the hot
charcoal above the downward moving pyrolysis
front (no oxygen in that stream). But I
presume the temperature is enough for them
to arrive above the char as quite a
different set of gases. So, I’d like to
hear more about what Nathan found. Any cite
we can look up?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
agree with the rest of Paul’s comments.
TLUDs are not yet a mature technology - but
it is growing up; it is not standing still.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM,
Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"
class=""> To all, 29
April 2017 [This note contains
some new content and explanations for
the advancement of TLUD stoves.]<br
class="">
<br class="">
1. Ron: I and probably some others
have successfully used dung as the
input fuel into TLUDs. I am not
recommending dung, but if it is being
burned, then a TLUD is preferred for
cleaner burning.<br class="">
<br class="">
2. AD: I agree with Ron that the
TLUD stoves are better with both light
and hard (heavy) wood than direct
burning of them in any direct-burning
(ICS) stove.<br class="">
<br class="">
3. Main point, to Neil and all:
TLUDs are not burning wood directly.
TLUDs turn wood into gases. THEN the
gases are burned. So poplar, maple,
maize cobs, dung, etc. are ALL
becoming gases first. THEN the
burning of those gases might be
somewhat different (but not as much as
the direct burning of those diverse
fuels). <br class="">
<br class="">
TLUD stoves are just arriving into
their "young-adult stage." In
contrast: not infancy, not childhood,
maybe still "youth", but certainly not
full maturity, and a long way from
the "old age" of the ICS "Inproved or
Inadequate" direct-burning
cookstoves. This is because we are
still learning about better and better
ways of mixing the combustible gases
with the incoming secondary air (SA)
(This is where the BURNING takes place
to make the heat that goes to the
pot. TLUDs are DIRECTLY burning
GASES, not solid fuels. ) (Please
see my "Classification of Stove
Technology and Fuels" documents
(1-page and 4-page versions) at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/">http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/</a>
)<br class="">
<br class="">
The <u class="">solid </u>wood and
dung etc are an intermediate stage of
the fuel. Sort of a "storage"
stage. Then pyrolysis "transforms
solids into gases plus charcoal". The
created gases are then burned
SEPARATELY (by centimeters and
seconds, but certainly separately)
from where the gases were created. We
do not have clear terminology for
this, in layman's terms. The closest
might be "gas burning stoves that make
their own gases." <br class="">
<br class="">
So, what development is happening in
the early "young-adult" stage?
Control of primary air, learning about
solid "intermediate" fuels, and
improving combustion of the gases, as
well as "new clothes" with sizes and
mateials. <br class="">
<br class="">
Consider this: We have known of FA
(forced air or fan assisted) TLUD
stoves from the 1990s. And there has
been much progress. But NO TLUD on
the market has SEPARATE controls for
"variable flows" of primary air (PA)
and secondary air (SA). THAT control
is what will make the difference
regarding Neil's initial question that
pointed to differences in the initial
fuels (and therefore differences in
the resultant gases and quantities of
gases that are being burned.) <br
class="">
<br class="">
Note that TLUDs can be made with
different flows of PA ans SA by
changing the sizes and number of
holes. That is a form of "tuning" the
TLUD for a specific fuel. This works
great for one initial fuel, but only
good but acceptable with other fringe
fuels. I am NOT referring to that
work as being "variable flows". I am
referring to when the user can change
the flows, even during one batch of
fuel.<br class="">
<br class="">
There has been some researach (mostly
unreported and set aside) on variable
control of primary and secondary air,
using fans. I have experimented
several times. The
"million-dollar-grants" have had
laboratory equipment with controlled
and measured separate air flows.
Nathan Puffer did it when we were
looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a fuel.
Seeds give off additional gases from
the vaporization (not pyrolysis) of
combustible vegetable oils
(carbohydrates), which are much more
plentiful in seeds than in stems and
branches and leaves, thereby
overwhelming the insufficient supply
of SA in a "regular" TLUD-FA. <br
class="">
<br class="">
There is a good reason to not have
separate control of PA and SA. That
reason is the user, the cook. To need
to "dial-in" the right flow of SA
(assuming PA flow stays the same) is,
for the most part and for most
non-scientist cooks, an extra task
that could easily be done
incorrectly. And there are the
financial reasons of increased cost
and maintenance. <br class="">
<br class="">
But with "separate air-flow control"
(not an established term and NOT
justifying an acronym like SAC, as in
TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone could put
many very different initial fuels into
a TLUD and have greater control of the
burning of the gases. <br class="">
<br class="">
More work is needed before TLUD stoves
can reach their full potential, while
growing in "young-adulthood". Today
(2017), maybe 40% of what can be known
about TLUD stoves is now known (but
not necessarily put into practice by
stove manufacturers). <br class="">
<br class="">
(This note is being placed at the
EPosts section of my website <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a>
so that it can be accessed
continually instead of only one time
on the Stove Listserv.) <br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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