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Todd,<br>
<br>
For those who are not familiar with the mentioned Super Dragon TLUD
stove, it can be seen at <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove">http://www.silverfire.us/super-dragon-fan-stove</a> <br>
<br>
There is a single knob. How does that knob change the RATIO
between the primary air and secondary air (PA and SA)? It is for
speed control. And the PWM is also for speed control. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/1/2017 12:48 AM, Todd Albi wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAE3shSNi4jhKK2h0N-Zhb1T+v94ReL40A7246DdDXzgzK1fp7A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div dir="ltr">Ron & Paul:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What exactly point are you making? We have a single
ventilation knob control on our Super Dragon TLUD fan stove we
have been selling since 2012. It has a single knob that
adjusts both primary and secondary air, and is available with
an optional pulse width modulator (fan speed control). Paul
has one of these fan stove units, <i>minus the important fan
speed control.</i> He never purchased the inline fan speed
control (option) for the stove (only the stove) and he only
can control primary & secondary mixing. That means he
cannot maximize low and high fire power cooking control. The
capacity to adjust primary and secondary air and fan speed
both are very important. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The high fire power with out the PWM allows for intense wok
cooking, and by reducing the electronic signal with the
optional PWM, means canning, waffle making or gourmet salt
block grilling are possible. The fan speed control (allows
high & low fire power cooking). Density of fuel is going
to result is longer duration of burns in any type of stove
(natural draft, fan, rocket or TLUD). We find that a force
fan stove is going to override ventilation inside the
combustion chamber to some degree, since air mixing is
obviously increased. This is despite how combustion chamber
was packed, since combustion is accelerated with a force air
fan. Density of fuel is going to impact combustion.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We also offer a TLUD forced fan grill that has 5 fan
settings (speeds), but no has air mixing control. The point
of the unit is to maximize high temperature searing, due to
high cooking temperatures involved, not achievable with
standard BBQ grill, that typically only reach 1/2 the grilling
temperatures the forced fan grill reaches. The point is that
different stove designs impact the cuisine and type of
specific cooking you desire. Biomass stove designs vary
significantly and have multiple pros and cons, depending on
the outcome you are trying to achieve (cuisine, fuel use,
etc...). Stove design choice is most important, not hanging
your hat on a specific stove design (rocket stove, TLUD, Force
Fan stove, or any other design). Different types of stove
designs when used together, can also complement each other.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example a natural draft rocket stove used in unison
with a natural draft TLUD may be ideal, with the former used
to cook your breakfast quickly, while a large a large water
bath used for sanitizing drinking water or cookware can sit
unattended on the TLUD for long durations, may be ideal in an
outdoor kitchen application, using natural draft stoves. Fan
stoves are going to accommodate larger groups of folks, or
increase speed of food preparation, if desired. Each stove
design has practical application and merits for the outcome
desired. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Todd Albi, SilverFire</div>
<div><img src="cid:part1.59F96E2D.EAE7E833@ilstu.edu"
height="56" width="444"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Ronal
W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Paul and ccs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
guess I don’t understand “<i>that task that I suggested
needs to be researched.” </i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div><i> <span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></i>I
contend that changing fuel density should not be an
influential property. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
am not suggesting that you wouldn’t need to change the
SA/PA ratio a tad for different fuels. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks
for reminding that the Mini Moto designers seem to be in
agreement with me.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 30, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Ron,<br>
<br>
A single controller (that does not allow for
changing the ratio and amount of air to PA and
SA) is, by definition, unable to do that task that
I suggested needs to be researched.<br>
<br>
And there certainly are SINGLE controls since the
Woodgas campstove had 2 settings, and now
Mimi-Moto has a dial with about 5 settings, but no
change of ratio.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-cite-prefix">On
4/30/2017 5:13 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Paul, List and ccs:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Well
I haven’t heard a reason why my yesterday
statement on only needing a single controller
(limiting fuels to the non-oily variety) was
incorrect. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This
is to hope we can have more discussion on this
quite important point. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
am quite sure I saw a TLUD design a few years
ago that used a single air control. Anyone
able to help?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
don’t know anything about Nathan Puffer’s
work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 29, 2017, at 9:33 PM, Paul
Anderson <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Ron,<br>
<br>
I disagree. You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">preferring to
use one controller for both is that
the ratio of primary to secondary
should always be the same </blockquote>
The point is that the ratio is NOT to
always be the same. Even the different
packing of the fuel in to the TLUD can
make primary air (PA) flow more easily,
creating more gases and needing a change
in secondary air (SA) to get optimal
performance.<br>
<br>
Automobiles have sensors for all kinds
of issues, with automated adjustments.
Just not practical yet for cookstoves
that need to be inexpensive. Bu who
knows, someday solid biomass as initial
fuel could be pyrolyzed and have the
gases combusted in very controlled ways
that would seem like Science Fiction if
said today. I believe that it will be
justified for the woodgas/TLUD stoves,
but not for the old-hat ICS stoves,
including rockets.<br>
<br>
Nathan Puffer''s work was not
quantitatively evaluated. It was a
demonstration that made its point but
was not in a way that could be into
large numbers of stoves at that time and
still today. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div
class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-cite-prefix">On
4/29/2017 9:46 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Paul, cc Nathan and list</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks
for bringing up the two subjects of
a) separately controlling secondary
air, and b) oily (mostly seed?)
fuels.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
agree that we should be controlling
secondary air, but I am pretty sure
that we should and can do this with
the same controller as for the
primary air. Most TLUDs already can
and should control primary air, but
make no effort to control the
secondary air. My reason for
preferring to use one controller for
both is that the ratio of primary to
secondary should always be the same
if we want (or can live with) a
fixed ratio for excess air. One
controller is cheaper and is easier
for the cook. Anyone disagree?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>On
the subject of using Jaropha seeds,
I am pretty sure that we would need
a larger amount of “secondary” air
than for non-oily fuels, but that
there still could be a single air
controller (just with a larger SA/PA
ratio [ maybe goes from about 6:1
up to 7:1 ??]. Note that these oils
cannot combust as they pass through
the hot charcoal above the downward
moving pyrolysis front (no oxygen in
that stream). But I presume the
temperature is enough for them to
arrive above the char as quite a
different set of gases. So, I’d
like to hear more about what Nathan
found. Any cite we can look up?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I
agree with the rest of Paul’s
comments. TLUDs are not yet a
mature technology - but it is
growing up; it is not standing
still.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 29, 2017, at 8:14 AM,
Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-5568544863208572952Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000"> To
all, 29
April 2017 [This note
contains some new content and
explanations for the
advancement of TLUD stoves.]<br>
<br>
1. Ron: I and probably
some others have successfully
used dung as the input fuel
into TLUDs. I am not
recommending dung, but if it
is being burned, then a TLUD
is preferred for cleaner
burning.<br>
<br>
2. AD: I agree with Ron
that the TLUD stoves are
better with both light and
hard (heavy) wood than direct
burning of them in any
direct-burning (ICS) stove.<br>
<br>
3. Main point, to Neil and
all: TLUDs are not burning
wood directly. TLUDs turn
wood into gases. THEN the
gases are burned. So poplar,
maple, maize cobs, dung, etc.
are ALL becoming gases
first. THEN the burning of
those gases might be somewhat
different (but not as much as
the direct burning of those
diverse fuels). <br>
<br>
TLUD stoves are just arriving
into their "young-adult
stage." In contrast: not
infancy, not childhood, maybe
still "youth", but certainly
not full maturity, and a long
way from the "old age" of the
ICS "Inproved or Inadequate"
direct-burning cookstoves.
This is because we are still
learning about better and
better ways of mixing the
combustible gases with the
incoming secondary air (SA)
(This is where the BURNING
takes place to make the heat
that goes to the pot. TLUDs
are DIRECTLY burning GASES,
not solid fuels. ) (Please
see my "Classification of
Stove Technology and Fuels"
documents (1-page and 4-page
versions) at <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/11/classification-stove-technologies-fuels/"
target="_blank">http://www.drtlud.com/2017/04/<wbr>11/classification-stove-<wbr>technologies-fuels/</a>
)<br>
<br>
The <u>solid </u>wood and
dung etc are an intermediate
stage of the fuel. Sort of a
"storage" stage. Then
pyrolysis "transforms solids
into gases plus charcoal".
The created gases are then
burned SEPARATELY (by
centimeters and seconds, but
certainly separately) from
where the gases were created.
We do not have clear
terminology for this, in
layman's terms. The closest
might be "gas burning stoves
that make their own gases." <br>
<br>
So, what development is
happening in the early
"young-adult" stage? Control
of primary air, learning about
solid "intermediate" fuels,
and improving combustion of
the gases, as well as "new
clothes" with sizes and
mateials. <br>
<br>
Consider this: We have known
of FA (forced air or fan
assisted) TLUD stoves from the
1990s. And there has been
much progress. But NO TLUD on
the market has SEPARATE
controls for "variable flows"
of primary air (PA) and
secondary air (SA). THAT
control is what will make the
difference regarding Neil's
initial question that pointed
to differences in the initial
fuels (and therefore
differences in the resultant
gases and quantities of gases
that are being burned.) <br>
<br>
Note that TLUDs can be made
with different flows of PA ans
SA by changing the sizes and
number of holes. That is a
form of "tuning" the TLUD for
a specific fuel. This works
great for one initial fuel,
but only good but acceptable
with other fringe fuels. I am
NOT referring to that work as
being "variable flows". I am
referring to when the user can
change the flows, even during
one batch of fuel.<br>
<br>
There has been some researach
(mostly unreported and set
aside) on variable control of
primary and secondary air,
using fans. I have
experimented several times.
The "million-dollar-grants"
have had laboratory equipment
with controlled and measured
separate air flows. Nathan
Puffer did it when we were
looking at Jatropha SEEDS as a
fuel. Seeds give off
additional gases from the
vaporization (not pyrolysis)
of combustible vegetable oils
(carbohydrates), which are
much more plentiful in seeds
than in stems and branches and
leaves, thereby overwhelming
the insufficient supply of SA
in a "regular" TLUD-FA. <br>
<br>
There is a good reason to not
have separate control of PA
and SA. That reason is the
user, the cook. To need to
"dial-in" the right flow of SA
(assuming PA flow stays the
same) is, for the most part
and for most non-scientist
cooks, an extra task that
could easily be done
incorrectly. And there are
the financial reasons of
increased cost and
maintenance. <br>
<br>
But with "separate air-flow
control" (not an established
term and NOT justifying an
acronym like SAC, as in
TLUD-SAC), Neil or anyone
could put many very different
initial fuels into a TLUD and
have greater control of the
burning of the gases. <br>
<br>
More work is needed before
TLUD stoves can reach their
full potential, while growing
in "young-adulthood". Today
(2017), maybe 40% of what can
be known about TLUD stoves is
now known (but not necessarily
put into practice by stove
manufacturers). <br>
<br>
(This note is being placed at
the EPosts section of my
website <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a> so
that it can be accessed
continually instead of only
one time on the Stove
Listserv.) <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28309%29%20452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="m_-5568544863208572952moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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