<div dir="ltr">I take Ron's side in this discussion between him and Philip. <br><br>The fundamental error is to assume that only an "integrated" solution is acceptable to a user. An additional error is in assuming that the market for new stove innovations is poor households -- which is a double whammy, since it rules out commercial customers as well as upper-income households, both of whom are frequently able and willing to "dis-integrate" the cooking into separate tasks and products. <br><br>And yes, monkeys and thieves are also fond of stealing solar PV panels. There were some statistics on such about 15 years ago, when many zealots for "solar home systems" (SHS) were interested in such statistics. (The largely sorry experience of SHS - maybe 5% of the lighting and tv market for households not connected to the grid or not having reliable supplies, after ~20 years of song and dance. Including by yours truly.) <br><br>I haven't looked lately but back 10+ years ago, I found that solar pre-cooking had been popularized in Indian temples and schools, and for some special cooking events (weddings and such). <br><br>Below some comments also to Roger. And I have commented on "induction" separately, whether by common grid electricity (no matter what the fuel mix) or by dedicated PV-battery systems. <br><br>Nikhil<br><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------ <br></font></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div>Philip: adding the list, which I assume Philip intended.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 7, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" target="_blank">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Ron,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">It sure would help if you could address the questions I raised, instead of referring to some wiki web in support of your position</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>RWL: Not “some wiki web”. This is a long standing NGO site, designed to educate about solar cooking. It contains high quality material on all of Philip’s comments.</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Philip</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><b>RWL: Here I repeat in italics the entire set of comments (NO “questions) from Philip’s message on the 6th, with my new inserted replies in bold. In summary, I think Philip has an inappropriate view of solar cookers - which of course MUST have backup - preferably from char-making stoves. See the full exchange further down. I cited the SCI wiki material because it fully covered all the responses I next make (and still think are not needed).</b></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1"><div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt"><i><font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3">1.</font><span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span" style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt"> </span><font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3">Cooking is a personal thing. Cooks like to be involved, to stir, to taste, to season, to improve. Just sitting and waiting is ‘wrong'</font></i></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>RWL1: I like the first part. I disagree that the average cook feels it “wrong” to “sit and wait”. It is in no way difficult to “stir, taste, and season” while solar cooking takes place.</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1"><div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><i>2.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> </span>One cloudy day, one family of unfed children, one less solar cooker<br></i></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL2: I conclude that Philip has done little solar cooking. I have never heard of any solar cook anywhere who ONLY used a solar cooker.</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1"><div><blockquote type="cite" style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><i>3.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> </span>Nature abhors a vacuum - monkeys, warthogs, porcupines, even passers-by, found the food too attractive to leave in the sun. </i></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL3: Anyone have any statistics on this “vacuum” problem? It seems a stretch to say this is a problem only for solar cooking.</b></div><div><b><br></b><div><i><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt">There may be </span></i><font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"><i>pla</i></font><i><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt">ces in the world where none of this applies, or where people have learned to use the cookers when the sun shines, but it is not a general solution to the cooking problem.</span><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt"> </span> </i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b>[RWL4: I have been going to solar cooking conferences for 40 years - and never recall anyone saying that solar cooking is a “general solution”.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Since Philip wants more of my personal views, let me add to my concluding sentence “ </b><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;font-size:12pt"><i>There are plenty of reasons for this list to be supportive of more solar cooking. </i></span><b>by noting:</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Solar cookers are by far the most healthy type of stove. </b></div><div><b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>By far the best from a forest preservation perspective. </b></div><div><b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>By far the lowest in an atmospheric carbon addition sense. </b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I am not working as much on solar cookers now as in the past - because they can’t remove atmospheric carbon, as can char-making stoves. </b><b> (I keep looking for combined solar - char-making systems.)</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>Ron</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson [<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.<wbr>net</a>]<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, June 7, 2017 5:08 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; Philip Lloyd<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span>Roger Samson<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Fine Particulates from a Selection of Cookstoves<u></u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Philip, list, Roger:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>This “Integrated” site is from 2005 or we would see TLUDs mentioned I believe: <a href="http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Integrated_Cooking_Method" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://solarcooking.wikia.<wbr>com/wiki/Integrated_Cooking_<wbr>Method</a> .<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>There are plenty of reasons for this list to be supportive of more solar cooking.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Ron<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">On Jun 6, 2017, at 1:19 AM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">I recall a message 30 years ago "The future for much of the world for clean cooking will be with cheap renewable solar power." A few years passed, and I wrote "The road to the North is littered with abandoned solar cookers." We found:<br>1.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Cooking is a personal thing. Cooks like to be involved, to stir, to taste, to season, to improve. Just sitting and waiting is 'wrong'.<br></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>*** Some pre-cooking can be done while taking kids to school or bringing them back. The first time I heard any housewife cooking with a solar cooker was in 2001, a few upper middle-class highly educated women working for a friend's environmentalist organization. They cooked beans and rice on solar, then went home to spice up the beans and make fresh breads on gas. *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">2.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>One cloudy day, one family of unfed children, one less solar cooker<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small"> </span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">3.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Nature abhors a vacuum - monkeys, warthogs, porcupines, even passers-by, found the food too attractive to leave in the sun.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>There may be places in the world where none of this applies, or where people have learned to use the cookers when the sun shines, but it is not a general solution to the cooking problem.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Philip Lloyd<br><br><br>Behalf Of Roger Samson<br>Sent: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:40 PM<br>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves;<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</a><br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fine Particulates from a Selection of Cookstoves<br><br>I just wish GACC would drop its obsession to push clean cooking with fossil fuels as its lead strategy. It's a low sustainability agenda subsiding fossil fuels and money intensive. It's no better than a win-lose.<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>The future for much of the world for clean cooking will be with cheap renewable solar power. It is dropping in price at 20%/year. Check out this video how it will be a disruptive technology for the entire energy sector. <br>Clean Disruption - Why Conventional Energy & Transportation will be Obsolete by 2030 - Oslo, March 2016<span class="m_-5377793362890594426Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM&feature=youtu.be" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/<wbr>watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM&feature=<wbr>youtu.be</a></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>*** I am skeptical. There is recently a lot of hype about India ditching coal and embracing renewables. Not worth more than a slight nod of head. *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">The nice thing about solar powered cooking with electricity is that in much of the developing world, lunch is a big part of the thermal energy demand for cooking. Many overburdened women simply re-heat food for dinner to save labour and fuel. </p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div> **** I don't believe so. This is more the case with urban middle-class in increasing numbers, but from what I have seen in much of India and Africa, 2-3 meals a day are cooked daily. Depends on size/composition of the "eating audience" - family in a loose sense. Anil Rajvanshi rightly says the working poor cannot afford the luxury of cooking three fresh meals a day; they just don't have the time. But this means a curtailment in meals cooked, not re-heating. In hot environments, food is not kept from morning till evening. *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Renewable power from solar energy is a great fit. You can do most of your cooking when power is cheapest and most reliable. </p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>*** Not necessarily the case, especially for the working poor. Both men and women work, and with smaller and independent ("nuclear") families, breaking up due to migration of the male workers to cities and towns, the routine of "cooking" has changed. Many geographic, seasonal variations. (Some menfolk return to villages during planting and harvesting seasons.) *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">We need to see more cookstove innovations around renewable solar including integrating solar thermal and electric cooking and heat retaining devices. <br></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div>*** "Integrating" is a choice best left to users, not stove designers. *** </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div class="m_-5377793362890594426WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type="cite"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br>regards<br><br>Roger<br></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div> <br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>