<div dir="ltr">Crispin: <br><br>I shouldn't have to add your name to the list of people who don't read what I write. <br><br>You accuse me of "Still too many assumptions." <br><br>I did not assume - perhaps should have -- that you are dead set against solar cooking on principle (which I cannot fathom, so I will not assume). <br><br>Since you have forced me to quote myself -- not that I mind! - please tell me what assumptions do you find in the following: <br><br><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">In other words, technical standards or lack thereof probably had the least to do with failure. Because solar cookers have a high capital cost, utilization rates play a more significant role. </span><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">Another consideration is the institutional base for marketing and after-sales service. With the kind of locale GIZ experts picked - rural northwest in South Africa - I wonder just who was locally available to source, store solar cookers for display and to serve as a selling and guarantee agent. </span><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">No matter what technical standards you labor on, it's the institutional capacity that is the Achilles' heel. Sitting in Europe and selling in South Africa worked with kerosene lamps a hundred years ago because the fuel was available locally. Selling solar cookers that way required a sanity check. </span><br style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px"><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">To all the "complaints" you recite, however, I see one underlying assumption -- that solar cooking is for rural poor households' exclusive and permanent transition away from wood. <br><br>Just what was the problem that was sought to be solved? I cannot fault project designers for mimicking exactly the rationales I have seen for improved biomass stoves -- solar is renewable, solar is clean, solar is free, solar will save trees, lives, climate, women's chastity. <br><br>If you want to challenge too many assumptions, you are looking in the wrong corner. </div><div class="gmail_extra"><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">Nikhil<br><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 4:59 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Still too many assumptions<span> on your part.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>GTZ/GIZ was always under pressure from solar cooking enthusiasts to promote their wares. Everywhere the result was the same – rejection.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Complaints in response were:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You didn’t try long enough<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You chose a place with too much free wood available, it has to have fuel stress.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You didn’t push hard enough<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You didn’t make them available cheap enough<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You didn’t give them good enough products (referring to cooking power)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You chose an area without enough space to use them<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You chose an area with too little solar resources<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">You chose an area without an income level high enough to afford them<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">And so on, till the cows came home. The fanatics remains fanatical and the cooks remained adamant.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">So…they chose a place that was as ‘ideal’ as possible. If would work anywhere on earth, it would work in North-West province straight west of Pretoria. In the end, the result was people cooked an average of two meals
a week on it. I think that’s correct. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Conclusions?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">They can cook <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">People can afford them<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The usage rate does not justify the expense<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We are not going to promote them anymore.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think that’s how it went. Whenever anyone pops in to ask why they don’t push solar cookers, they are handed a copy of that report. If someone comes up with proof they can work at scale, I am sure they will listen.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></p><span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin<u></u><u></u></p></font></span><div><div class="gmail-h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It is not necessary that a solar cooker have a backup. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please stop thinking of the cooking market in terms of vague "integrated cooking solution." Solar cookers can do daytime large-scale tasks. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Besides, a three-stone wood fire is always a reliable backup. Cutting its use may not satisfy Kirk Smith as "truly health protective", but that makes no difference. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">About the time as I looked into Gelfuel in Malawi, I also talked to some people about solar cookers. My tentative view then (~15 years ago) was that while Gelfuel could be a convenient small-scale backup, solar cooker just did not appeal
to cooks. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Possibly another instance of Boy Scout thermodynamicists who didn't find a good market definition and an industrial product designer.
<br>
<br>
In other words, technical standards or lack thereof probably had the least to do with failure. Because solar cookers have a high capital cost, utilization rates play a more significant role. <br>
<br>
Another consideration is the institutional base for marketing and after-sales service. With the kind of locale GIZ experts picked - rural northwest in South Africa - I wonder just who was locally available to source, store solar cookers for display and to serve
as a selling and guarantee agent. <br>
<br>
No matter what technical standards you labor on, it's the institutional capacity that is the Achilles' heel. Sitting in Europe and selling in South Africa worked with kerosene lamps a hundred years ago because the fuel was available locally. Selling solar cookers
that way required a sanity check. <br>
<br>
<br>
Nikhil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Nikhil Desai<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="tel:+91%2090999%2052080" target="_blank">+91 909 995 2080</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Skype: nikhildesai888<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Jun 14, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Dieter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Do you know the name(s) of the test methods used during that comparison, and did any of them make it to being accepted as an international solar cooker standard?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Also, thank you for your clarifications and request that we consider the whole solar sector is not a single 'thing'. Because solar cookers require a backup device, often a biomass stove,
we should pay attention on this channel. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Arising out of the South African GTZ (at the time) project is the realisation that the biomass stove has to be rapid lighting. By the time the cook gives up on the solar cooked meal,
the need for immediate heat is obvious. The report on the project should be available on line. To be practical, the biomass and solar stoves should be marketed as a pair. We toyed with the idea at the time that the biomass stove could be built into the solar
cooker. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Generally speaking the solar cooker cost a lot more than a back up stove.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">Crispin
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Dear Stovers,<br>
<br>
A source of confusion concerning solar cookers is the large variety of devices, all of them called "solar cookers". At the Plataforma Solar/Almeria/Spain there was an International Solar Cooker Test by Eurpoean Committee for Solar Cooking Research in 1994 with
25 participating devices. One of them did not cook at all; the SK parabolic cooker (1.4 m reflector diameter) brougt 48 liters of water to the boil per day. Some cookers had direct access to the pot, others not. Some were only applicable for special tasks,
etc. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Thus, general judgments are problematic. Solar cooking is a great opportunity with a high variety of applications. Problems can be overcome, but persistence is
necessary, similar e.g. to the development of bicycles. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<br>
Dieter</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 14.06.2017 um 03:46 schrieb Michael N Trevor:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here in the Marshall Islands, the another science teacher wanted them thrown away because they were bulky and had no value in classes centered on environmental science and climate change. Of course we are only about 2/3 meters above sea
level<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 1:01 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Nikhil<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let's not assume anything. These were the findings of the study which was a multi-year attempt to find out if there was any long term reason to get involved in the promotion of solar cookers. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The conclusion was, no. And they swore them off. For them, if they had a chance anywhere that was the ideal place, and it was not viable. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Very sane. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You have listed enough reasons to dispute the sanity of GIZ experts. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">Nikhil<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On Jun 13, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">Solar concentrating cooker:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">One of the main problems encountered with solar cookers (K14, K16 and so on) in the last big GIZ effort in North-West Province of South Africa was, in spite of the rural location, theft of the
stoves for sale to scrap merchants. Aluminum is valuable. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">Another common problem is wind tipping them over.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">A third is wind-blown dust getting into the food.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">A fourth is theft of the food.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">A fifth is storage of the unit.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">People have little space in their homes and storage of a valuable cooker outdoors is not practical.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">GIZ spent about 7m Euros on that project and declared no further interest in solar cookers.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="gmail-m_1258526436397112459m-4953579728907496045m-2998778485329479889msonospacing">Crispin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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