<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Nikhil,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Well said. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The PM 2.5 metric has wasted more years and falsely put more stoves at the top for marketing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The WBT was well designed going from Fuel >> completed Task but fails for three reasons: </div><div class="">1) The test for fuel was poorly designed. Stopping a fire in seconds and sorting the char from ash and wood not reproducible.</div><div class="">2) The fuel test had no connection to the fuel at the location the stove was planned to be used.</div><div class="">3) Too many matrices that were just stated and not actually tested. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The fuel (processed) for the WBT was chosen to produce the <b class="">best</b> results. Not chosen to give <b class="">reproducible</b> results. Best results are for the purpose of improving combustion chamber measurements etc. Collecting wild biomass from around a location, chopping, cutting, splitting and drying to produce a homogenous mix would give reproducible results and be more like what might be used. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What needs to be done:</div><div class="">Fuel needs to be based on matrices that cross all biomass fuels. I suggest fixed and volatile matter. </div><div class="">Its the fixed and volatile matter that is used to compare from site to site (along with other data like shape, size, etc).</div><div class="">The fuel tested and compared is done using very dry fuel. The effects of increasing moisture can be determined and plotted later.</div><div class=""> </div><div class="">We need more Completed Tasks in addition to boiling water to be used when comparing stoves. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> Also; The testing does not consider the goal intended because the goal is different for each area. Saving wood, faster cooking, less 2.5 pollution, less fuel preparation time, etc are all different goals. Some more important than others depending on the location. The testing just reports the matrices that are needed to determine these goals. The end user decides the goals more important. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We need a list of suitable stoves for an area. That where the fuel on site can be used in a stove to complete a task. The requirements (fuel prep.) and matrices (fuel used, time, 2.5PM) during completion are reported. Individual decisions are made to determine the stove they want to purchase. Stoves that are not suitable (cannot complete a specific task) are not on the list. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 6, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" class="">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Xavier: <br class=""><br class=""><div class="">I don't know about Ecostove performing badly with the WBT and still being superior to the traditional stoves. As you know, I don't think much of the efficiency metric -- no tree needs to be "saved" if its use has a higher value - and PM2.5 is only a recent fad thanks to Kirk Smith and WHO. I don't think much of mg/min emission rates cooked into the cake of annual average concentrations irrespective of fuel and cooking practices. <br class=""><br class="">But if Ecostove is found to be usable and used, that is a success, no matter what lab tests say. Maybe only a success of marketing and delivery chains, but that - as Kirk Smith says after his second epiphany - is more important than mere science. <br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Science and marketing merge in product engineering. Let's see who succeeds. Do you think the ISO TC-285 exercise is less about science and more about marketing, by fooling people about "health benefits" or specific mg/min Emission Rate ranges for different Tiers? <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">------------------------</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">Nikhil Desai</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Xavier Brandao <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="FR" link="blue" vlink="purple" class=""><div class="m_-6858960616899908325WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">Dear Nikhil, <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">Thanks for sharing these 2 papers. They really nailed it, and that was already back in 2011.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">The Aprovecho Research Center has been pushing for years the WBT and rocket stove designs with their golden rules without the expected success.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">The example of the Ecostove is really interesting. It performs badly with the WBT but probably still is a great stove compared to the traditional stoves. It shows how much relying on the WBT has been problematic.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">Paul,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">I have to look more into detail this new handbook by the GACC and MIT.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">I think I'll post about it next week.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><br class="">Best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class="">Xavier<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm" class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" class="">De :</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" class=""> Nikhil Desai [mailto:<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a><wbr class="">] <br class=""><b class="">Envoyé :</b> mardi 1 août 2017 20:28<br class=""><b class="">À :</b> Xavier Brandao<br class=""><b class="">Cc :</b> Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Cecil Cook; Tami Bond; Robert van der Plas; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br class=""><b class="">Objet :</b> Revisiting WBT and performance metrics - revisiting history<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></p></div><div class=""><div class="h5"><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">List, Xavier: <br class=""><br class="">I stumbled upon paper a few months ago - <a href="http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67" target="_blank" class="">Sustaining Culture with Sustainable Stoves:The Role of Tradition in Providing Clean-BurningStoves to Developing Countries</a>, Consilience, The Journal of Sustainable Development Vol. 5, Iss. 1 (2011), Pp. 71-95. Britta Victor Department of Anthropology Princeton University, Princeton, NJ . <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><br class="">It is relevant to the earlier discussion on the tensions between physical and social scientists or students of cultures and foods, and the pursuit of energy efficiency as the sole metric. <br class=""><br class="">There is another 2011 paper - <a href="https://mlgifford.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/cookstove-programs_berkeley-thesis.pdf" target="_blank" class="">A Review of Global Cookstoves Programs</a>, by Mary Louise Gifford - that cites some of the same material that is cited by Britta Victor, and reaches similar, though less strong conclusions, namely that global technologists alone are likely to fail. <br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">------------------------------<wbr class="">-----<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Excerpt from Britta Victor's <a href="http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67" target="_blank" class="">Sustaining Culture with Sustainable Stoves:The Role of Tradition in Providing Clean-Burning Stoves to Developing Countries</a>, Consilience <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><br class=""> <u class=""> </u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""> </u><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>
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<div class="">Thanks</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class="">Gabilan Laboratory</div><div class="">Keith Day Company, Inc.</div><div class="">1091 Madison Lane</div><div class="">Salinas, CA 93907</div><div class="">(831) 246-0417 cell</div><div class="">(831) 771-0126 office</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:fShields@keithdaycompany.com" class="">fShields@keithdaycompany.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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