<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir="ltr"><span>what i know is that my friend has now four improved stoves in his school. they burn just a fraction of the wood he burned before and there is almost no smoke produced. before his walls and ceiling in the cooking area were black with soot. i don't know about measurements, but i know what my eye can see. the difference is clear. cliff jarrell, port harcourt, nigeria</span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_6699" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_6698"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_6697"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" <stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 16 August 2017, 21:01<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Stoves Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_6696"><br><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7084">Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_6695"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7382"> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7381">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7383">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a ymailto="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7384"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7385">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7386"> <a ymailto="mailto:stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7387"><br></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1502941184657_7391">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Today's Topics:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"> 1. Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater than thought<br></div><div dir="ltr"> (Bruno M.)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 2. Re: Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater than<br></div><div dir="ltr"> thought (Sujoy Chaudhury)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 3. Re: Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater than<br></div><div dir="ltr"> thought (Nikhil Desai)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 4. Re: Revisiting WBT and performance metrics - revisiting<br></div><div dir="ltr"> history (Nikhil Desai)<br></div><div dir="ltr"> 5. Re: Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater than<br></div><div dir="ltr"> thought (Nikhil Desai)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 1<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 01:50:25 +0200<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: "Bruno M." <<a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: [Stoves] Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater<br></div><div dir="ltr"> than thought<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID: <<a ymailto="mailto:7cf7443e-2678-c42f-2245-d9093700c6c1@telenet.be" href="mailto:7cf7443e-2678-c42f-2245-d9093700c6c1@telenet.be">7cf7443e-2678-c42f-2245-d9093700c6c1@telenet.be</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I didn't saw this been posted here before:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Andrew Grieshop a researcher from North Carolina State University,<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">found:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Advanced wood-burning stoves designed for use in the developing world<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">can reduce air pollution more than anticipated, because gaseous <br></div><div dir="ltr">emissions from traditional wood stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">form more particulate matter in the atmosphere than researchers <br></div><div dir="ltr">previously thought.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Enjoy<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Bruno M.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/4cf4be4f/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/4cf4be4f/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 2<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 11:30:36 +0530<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Sujoy Chaudhury <<a ymailto="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com" href="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com">sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>, Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater<br></div><div dir="ltr"> than thought<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CA+ejjr74dsi+Z+F5ZdxcObbh8V1-9YwcrYwyQOpKXjiB+<a ymailto="mailto:iwWzg@mail.gmail.com" href="mailto:iwWzg@mail.gmail.com">iwWzg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Dear Bruno<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Thank you for the paper- Interesting to wood stove promoters.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">But - "All of this is based on lab measurements, which is important to note<br></div><div dir="ltr">because previous studies have found that advanced stoves don't necessarily<br></div><div dir="ltr">work as well in the field as they do in the lab".<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Measurements from the field. anyone thinking about this ?<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Regards<br></div><div dir="ltr">Sujoy Chaudhury<br></div><div dir="ltr">CSS<br></div><div dir="ltr">Kolkata<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:20 AM, Bruno M. <<a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I didn't saw this been posted here before:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Andrew Grieshop a researcher from North Carolina State University,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> found:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Advanced wood-burning stoves designed for use in the developing world<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> can reduce air pollution more than anticipated, because gaseous emissions<br></div><div dir="ltr">> from traditional wood stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> form more particulate matter in the atmosphere than researchers previously<br></div><div dir="ltr">> thought.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Enjoy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Bruno M.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Stoves mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> lists.bioenergylists.org<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/b4f4729f/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/b4f4729f/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 3<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 22:26:25 -0400<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Nikhil Desai <<a ymailto="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: <a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>, Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a ymailto="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater<br></div><div dir="ltr"> than thought<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CAK27e=mEF8xY+<a ymailto="mailto:7LYCq8O7VEqxL9bkAjE5CCpPudW-qJhzuZodQ@mail.gmail.com" href="mailto:7LYCq8O7VEqxL9bkAjE5CCpPudW-qJhzuZodQ@mail.gmail.com">7LYCq8O7VEqxL9bkAjE5CCpPudW-qJhzuZodQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Bruno M.:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Paul Anderson had posted this on 10 August, and Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br></div><div dir="ltr">and I had posted rejoinders the same day.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The "advanced" stove tested by Grieshop and colleagues was a Philips stove<br></div><div dir="ltr">that some "health" researchers had characterized as not good enough,<br></div><div dir="ltr">because their use did not lead to significant health gain that the<br></div><div dir="ltr">researchers had apparently taken as an article of faith. There was a<br></div><div dir="ltr">discussion late last year on this List on that "epidemiological" study in<br></div><div dir="ltr">Malawi.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Here, the same stove is praised by the NCSU team because they have taken<br></div><div dir="ltr">atmospheric chemistry and what they call "atmospheric aging" of emissions<br></div><div dir="ltr">into account.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I find it a very interesting result, but irrelevant to practical design and<br></div><div dir="ltr">use considerations - or "benefits" in "health" or "climate". For one, the<br></div><div dir="ltr">ISO/WHO mythology is built around hourly average emission rate of PM2.5 at<br></div><div dir="ltr">the time of testing, nothing else.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Nikhil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">Nikhil Desai<br></div><div dir="ltr">(US +1) 202 568 5831<br></div><div dir="ltr">*Skype: nikhildesai888*<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 7:50 PM, Bruno M. <<a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I didn't saw this been posted here before:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Andrew Grieshop a researcher from North Carolina State University,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> found:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Advanced wood-burning stoves designed for use in the developing world<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> can reduce air pollution more than anticipated, because gaseous emissions<br></div><div dir="ltr">> from traditional wood stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> form more particulate matter in the atmosphere than researchers previously<br></div><div dir="ltr">> thought.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Enjoy<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Bruno M.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Stoves mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">> lists.bioenergylists.org<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170815/471df6e4/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170815/471df6e4/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 4<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2017 23:01:35 -0400<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Nikhil Desai <<a ymailto="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>, Frank Shields <<a ymailto="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: Xavier Brandao <<a ymailto="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>>, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Revisiting WBT and performance metrics -<br></div><div dir="ltr"> revisiting history<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CAK27e=m0f_qL19gy_yhPrWoa8H_4=<a ymailto="mailto:i1NH98gXAhhygZvkxkMjw@mail.gmail.com" href="mailto:i1NH98gXAhhygZvkxkMjw@mail.gmail.com">i1NH98gXAhhygZvkxkMjw@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Frank:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I could not respond to this sooner. I fully agree "The PM 2.5 metric has<br></div><div dir="ltr">wasted more years and falsely put more stoves at the top for marketing."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Perhaps marketing only Berkeley and related careers at WHO or GACC. (A<br></div><div dir="ltr">fresh PhD on the Chicago study in pregnant women in Nigeria is said to have<br></div><div dir="ltr">been hired by GACC.)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Wasting time in search of holy grails and wandering into every ally that<br></div><div dir="ltr">common sense sees to be blind serves one and only one purpose --<br></div><div dir="ltr">affirmation of Kirk Smith's definition of "solid fuels" as "dirty cooking"<br></div><div dir="ltr">and LPG/electricity as "clean cooking". If you think about it, however, oil<br></div><div dir="ltr">companies and electric utilities are not primarily in the business of<br></div><div dir="ltr">reducing cooking fuel hourly emissions no matter what the fuel, what the<br></div><div dir="ltr">home, what the cook and what the meal. What appears to be marketing for<br></div><div dir="ltr">LPG/electricity as "clean cookstoves" is a facade; the real marketing is<br></div><div dir="ltr">careers and consultancies.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Yes, the hourly average PM2.5 emission rate is a red herring, with no<br></div><div dir="ltr">identifiable benefit other than cooked up "indoor concentrations" via BAMG<br></div><div dir="ltr">model with ridiculous assumptions.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">With no basis in theory or evidence, these manufactured estimates of<br></div><div dir="ltr">concentrations, netted for ambient air concentrations from other sources (I<br></div><div dir="ltr">don't know about "indoor" sources of PM2.5 other than a cookstove, such as<br></div><div dir="ltr">cigarette or dust or foods), mean precisely NOTHING.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">So long as gullibility trounces reason, the circus will continue.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">It is time to take another look at the last seven years of re-inventing the<br></div><div dir="ltr">wheel.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Your emphasis on fuel and cooking tasks should wake up those merrily<br></div><div dir="ltr">dreaming fuel-free, cook-free "science". Yes, many egos are at stake, and<br></div><div dir="ltr">it is hard for the grant-makers to admit the errors of their ways. So good<br></div><div dir="ltr">money is thrown after bad money year after year, as a new generation gets<br></div><div dir="ltr">hypnotized into thinking that the problem at hand is publishing new pal-<br></div><div dir="ltr">and boss- approved cite-o-logy, not to cultivate the capacity to design a<br></div><div dir="ltr">series of good stoves and testing them in actual use.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I hope to find some rocket scientist - at least, s/he would know hydrogen<br></div><div dir="ltr">and other fuels suited to various tasks - and a robotics engineer for my<br></div><div dir="ltr">iCook stovers. You have already given a picture of defining "contexts".<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Nikhil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Frank Shields <<a ymailto="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear Nikhil,<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Well said.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> The PM 2.5 metric has wasted more years and falsely put more stoves at the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> top for marketing.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> The WBT was well designed going from Fuel >> completed Task but fails for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> three reasons:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 1) The test for fuel was poorly designed. Stopping a fire in seconds and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> sorting the char from ash and wood not reproducible.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 2) The fuel test had no connection to the fuel at the location the stove<br></div><div dir="ltr">> was planned to be used.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> 3) Too many matrices that were just stated and not actually tested.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> The fuel (processed) for the WBT was chosen to produce the *best*<br></div><div dir="ltr">> results. Not chosen to give *reproducible* results. Best results are for<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the purpose of improving combustion chamber measurements etc. Collecting<br></div><div dir="ltr">> wild biomass from around a location, chopping, cutting, splitting and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> drying to produce a homogenous mix would give reproducible results and be<br></div><div dir="ltr">> more like what might be used.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> What needs to be done:<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Fuel needs to be based on matrices that cross all biomass fuels. I suggest<br></div><div dir="ltr">> fixed and volatile matter.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Its the fixed and volatile matter that is used to compare from site to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> site (along with other data like shape, size, etc).<br></div><div dir="ltr">> The fuel tested and compared is done using very dry fuel. The effects of<br></div><div dir="ltr">> increasing moisture can be determined and plotted later.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> We need more Completed Tasks in addition to boiling water to be used when<br></div><div dir="ltr">> comparing stoves.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Also; The testing does not consider the goal intended because the goal is<br></div><div dir="ltr">> different for each area. Saving wood, faster cooking, less 2.5 pollution,<br></div><div dir="ltr">> less fuel preparation time, etc are all different goals. Some more<br></div><div dir="ltr">> important than others depending on the location. The testing just reports<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the matrices that are needed to determine these goals. The end user decides<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the goals more important.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> We need a list of suitable stoves for an area. That where the fuel on site<br></div><div dir="ltr">> can be used in a stove to complete a task. The requirements (fuel prep.)<br></div><div dir="ltr">> and matrices (fuel used, time, 2.5PM) during completion are reported.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Individual decisions are made to determine the stove they want to purchase.<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Stoves that are not suitable (cannot complete a specific task) are not on<br></div><div dir="ltr">> the list.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Regards<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Frank<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Aug 6, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a ymailto="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Xavier:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> I don't know about Ecostove performing badly with the WBT and still being<br></div><div dir="ltr">> superior to the traditional stoves. As you know, I don't think much of the<br></div><div dir="ltr">> efficiency metric -- no tree needs to be "saved" if its use has a higher<br></div><div dir="ltr">> value - and PM2.5 is only a recent fad thanks to Kirk Smith and WHO. I<br></div><div dir="ltr">> don't think much of mg/min emission rates cooked into the cake of annual<br></div><div dir="ltr">> average concentrations irrespective of fuel and cooking practices.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> But if Ecostove is found to be usable and used, that is a success, no<br></div><div dir="ltr">> matter what lab tests say. Maybe only a success of marketing and delivery<br></div><div dir="ltr">> chains, but that - as Kirk Smith says after his second epiphany - is more<br></div><div dir="ltr">> important than mere science.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Science and marketing merge in product engineering. Let's see who<br></div><div dir="ltr">> succeeds. Do you think the ISO TC-285 exercise is less about science and<br></div><div dir="ltr">> more about marketing, by fooling people about "health benefits" or specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">> mg/min Emission Rate ranges for different Tiers?<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Nikhil<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> ------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Nikhil Desai<br></div><div dir="ltr">> (US +1) 202 568 5831 <(202)%20568-5831><br></div><div dir="ltr">> *Skype: nikhildesai888*<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 10:24 AM, Xavier Brandao <<a ymailto="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Dear Nikhil,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Thanks for sharing these 2 papers. They really nailed it, and that was<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> already back in 2011.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> The Aprovecho Research Center has been pushing for years the WBT and<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> rocket stove designs with their golden rules without the expected success.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> The example of the Ecostove is really interesting. It performs badly with<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> the WBT but probably still is a great stove compared to the traditional<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> stoves. It shows how much relying on the WBT has been problematic.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Paul,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I have to look more into detail this new handbook by the GACC and MIT.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I think I'll post about it next week.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Best,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Xavier<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> *De :* Nikhil Desai [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>]<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> *Envoy? :* mardi 1 ao?t 2017 20:28<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> *? :* Xavier Brandao<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> *Cc :* Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Cecil Cook; Tami Bond; Robert van der<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Plas; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> *Objet :* Revisiting WBT and performance metrics - revisiting history<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> List, Xavier:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I stumbled upon paper a few months ago - Sustaining Culture with<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Sustainable Stoves:The Role of Tradition in Providing Clean-BurningStoves<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> to Developing Countries<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <<a href="http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67" target="_blank">http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67</a>>,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Consilience, The Journal of Sustainable Development Vol. 5, Iss. 1 (2011),<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Pp. 71-95. Britta Victor Department of Anthropology Princeton University,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Princeton, NJ .<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> It is relevant to the earlier discussion on the tensions between physical<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> and social scientists or students of cultures and foods, and the pursuit of<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> energy efficiency as the sole metric.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> There is another 2011 paper - A Review of Global Cookstoves Programs<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <<a href="https://mlgifford.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/cookstove-programs_berkeley-thesis.pdf" target="_blank">https://mlgifford.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/cookstove-programs_berkeley-thesis.pdf</a>>,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> by Mary Louise Gifford - that cites some of the same material that is cited<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> by Britta Victor, and reaches similar, though less strong conclusions,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> namely that global technologists alone are likely to fail.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Nikhil<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> -----------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Excerpt from Britta Victor's Sustaining Culture with Sustainable<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Stoves:The Role of Tradition in Providing Clean-Burning Stoves to<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Developing Countries<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <<a href="http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67" target="_blank">http://www.consiliencejournal.org/index.php/consilience/article/viewFile/157/67</a>>,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Consilience<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div 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dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170815/4b59cb8f/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170815/4b59cb8f/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Message: 5<br></div><div dir="ltr">Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:02:13 -0400<br></div><div dir="ltr">From: Nikhil Desai <<a ymailto="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>, Sujoy Chaudhury<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com" href="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com">sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Cc: <a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a ymailto="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Re: [Stoves] Benefits of advanced wood-burning stoves greater<br></div><div dir="ltr"> than thought<br></div><div dir="ltr">Message-ID:<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <CAK27e=mjoCyCWsNB2qOzds8D3LqDo+nqH==<a ymailto="mailto:iqAcgdhjWTWOcng@mail.gmail.com" href="mailto:iqAcgdhjWTWOcng@mail.gmail.com">iqAcgdhjWTWOcng@mail.gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Sujoy:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">This is a cup in a firestorm, if you understand what I mean by inverting<br></div><div dir="ltr">metaphor.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The study was indeed linked to field use in Malawi, the same one associated<br></div><div dir="ltr">with a rather ludicrous "health study". That apart, the NCSU research is<br></div><div dir="ltr">about "climate change", not about cooking or health. (The health professors<br></div><div dir="ltr">had already declared Philips stoves in Malawi as making no significant<br></div><div dir="ltr">change. I am writing from memory.)<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Why bother? All the talk about "household stoves warm the planet" is also<br></div><div dir="ltr">cooked up "convenient facts". It is known for decades that depending on the<br></div><div dir="ltr">type of biomass and stoves (in and outside households), there are warming<br></div><div dir="ltr">aerosols (black carbon) and there are cooling aerosols (organic carbon) in<br></div><div dir="ltr">different ratios.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I found this study very interesting because they did some follow-up lab<br></div><div dir="ltr">studies to discover that "atmospheric aging" of emissions changes the<br></div><div dir="ltr">relative ratio of warming v. cooling species.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">So, in an academic sense, field testing of roughly a billion stoves (some<br></div><div dir="ltr">people have more than one, and there are non-household users) will tell us<br></div><div dir="ltr">if they warm or cool the earth.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">That is the limit of my recollection of atmospheric chemistry on that. I<br></div><div dir="ltr">don't think it matters a hoot if the professoriat finds that their findings<br></div><div dir="ltr">are different from what "researchers previously thought."<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Especially as come to climate change, where I am guessing the net effect of<br></div><div dir="ltr">biomass stoves on multi-decadal GMST change is zero.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">I hope it surprises nobody that in a crude sense, the net effect of<br></div><div dir="ltr">coal-fired power emissions on multi-decadal GMST change is also zero.<br></div><div dir="ltr">Depends on what organic carbon and sulfate emission loads are.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">The war against solid fuels is fought with convenient lies and academic<br></div><div dir="ltr">factoids.<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Nikhil<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 2:00 AM, Sujoy Chaudhury <<a ymailto="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com" href="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com">sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr">wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Dear Bruno<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Thank you for the paper- Interesting to wood stove promoters.<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> But - "All of this is based on lab measurements, which is important to<br></div><div dir="ltr">> note because previous studies have found that advanced stoves don't<br></div><div dir="ltr">> necessarily work as well in the field as they do in the lab".<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Measurements from the field. anyone thinking about this ?<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> Regards<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Sujoy Chaudhury<br></div><div dir="ltr">> CSS<br></div><div dir="ltr">> Kolkata<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:20 AM, Bruno M. <<a ymailto="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be" href="mailto:brunom1@telenet.be">brunom1@telenet.be</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> I didn't saw this been posted here before:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Andrew Grieshop a researcher from North Carolina State University,<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> found:<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Advanced wood-burning stoves designed for use in the developing world<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> can reduce air pollution more than anticipated, because gaseous emissions<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> from traditional wood stoves<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> form more particulate matter in the atmosphere than researchers<br></div><div dir="ltr">>> previously thought.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> <a href="https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm" target="_blank">https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/08/170807112840.htm</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Enjoy<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> Bruno M.<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br></div><div dir="ltr">>><br></div><div dir="ltr">><br></div><div dir="ltr">-------------- next part --------------<br></div><div dir="ltr">An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br></div><div dir="ltr">URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/130b34d4/attachment-0001.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20170816/130b34d4/attachment-0001.html</a>><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Subject: Digest Footer<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir="ltr">Stoves mailing list<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a ymailto="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">------------------------------<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">End of Stoves Digest, Vol 84, Issue 16<br></div><div dir="ltr">**************************************<br></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html>