<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">List and ccs</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This is a first. Usually I find something from Crispin to agree with. Below - nothing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 30, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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Dear Tom and Nikhil</div>
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I feel that the claims being made about what I consider a very technical matter of attributing specific health benefits in a calculable manner for individuals who adopt a highly improved cooking stove are creating mayhem in the world of stoves. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL1: I see considerable favorable progress. All four groups that Crispin defines below are doing a good job - on a very difficult task. Crispin below complains about more than “ <i class="">attributing specific health benefits</i>”. Apparently we are to believe that there is absolutely nothing useful coming out of a lot of hard work by many talented stove testing people. </b></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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There are a lot of crooked things done and said about stove performance but this business of aDALYs takes the cake. The claims are cooked up out of nothing material, substantial, or defensibly true.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWL2: If there a “<i class="">lot</i>” and “<i class="">crooked</i>”, you’d think there could be a cite. There have been thousands of Physicians involved in the Daly and aDaly numbers - for decades. Surprising that we have such huge international action to discourage cigarette smoking considering that health aspects apparently were believable to almost everyone by now - using the DALY approach in largest part. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The “aDALY” concept is much easier to get at with data on work absences.<br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class=""><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> </div>
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For six years we suffered through the gerrymandering of the Lima meeting, the IWA and its silly metrics and 'tiers' and what followed. We never had so much as a single conference on the relevance of what has been learned in India and China over the past 40
years, and how manifestly the tiny Western stove community has failed to address the fundamental errors in both technical evaluations, and the absence of meaningful evaluation criteria relevant to the users. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL3: I recall that the Lima meeting decision was unanimous (I don’t wish to take the time to look up that cite, but I gave it on this list a while back). I don’t understand why call anything about stove testing to be “gerrymandering”. The ISO process is open to every country - and is progressing well mostly (I listen in from time to time). India is the site of the next GACC meeting and China has plenty of stove conferences. China was well represented at GACC’s meeting in Cambodia. I still know of no place to go to look at the claimed “fundamental errors”. Why issues of efficiency (tiers) and especially CO and particulate emissions should not be “<i class="">relevant"</i> is a mystery (that could be solved with a cite).</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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I think a thrust in favour of greater consideration of the users has come from, among others, Cecil Cook first during the ProBEC era, and again in the WB Central Java stove pilot - a high quality conversation which did not take place on this list. Cecil came
up with a couple of proposals that are quite radical departures from the 'engineer-centric' evaluations assumed to be taking place during a WBTest. First, he feels that a focus group should be used to do all the pre-screening of products to eliminate those
that are silly, useless, bizarre, ugly, cumbersome, fiddly and unaffordable. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span><b class="">[RWL4: Cecil has reported on this list that he has never asked a question to any stove user about possible advantages of char-making stoves. And he didn’t think it appropriate to ask. Similar to asking about the use of cell phones a few years back. I submit that Cecil should not be considered the world’s best expert on how to improve stoves. And probably he has been under instructions.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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Next, having passed muster, stoves can be submitted to the (expensive) process of testing their technical performance. At that point I entered with the SeTAR mantra which holds that a stove does not have an 'efficiency' number, it has a performance curve like
a water pump or [fill in your best analogy for a range of answers].</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL5: If I as a user or a group want to reduce my fuel consumption - I believe efficiency is exactly the right parameter to measure and report. And heath issues are also related to the amount of emissions - which is known from the tier placement.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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The only way a performance rating can be reduced to a single number is if the product is doing something arguably consistent with its typical pattern of use. Outside that context the numbers mean little, as affirmed by the unpredictable performance of stoves
in a different context. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL6: These tests (ongoing for decades) are comparing stoves for one task, not different tasks. Different users and different tasks doesn’t invalidate great work by people like Jim Jetter - over many years. I have seen no one ever propose a better single task than heating water. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Also, I believe there is considerable correlation between lab and field testing results. It should be no surprise to anyone that the lab results are lower when you watch how little time is spent away from flame tending.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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Having accept this reality, which is growing throughout the sector, one comes to the matter of the 'health claims' of the WHO emission rates and all that EPA jazz about concentrations of various pollutants. How is it possible that a proper evaluation of impact
on energy and fuel performance is accepted as being meaningful, accurate, predictive, in a carefully understood context, but a health impact can be made based on flights of fancy about ‘concentrations' that would make a WBT tester blush?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL7: I intentionally mentioned Jim Jetter’s name above because he works for EPA. It is disappointing to see Crispin call EPA measurements of pollutants “jazz”. Sounds eerily reminiscent about arguments on the health impacts of cigarette smoking. </b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Jim’s measurements are not on concentrations - they are on emissions. Others (such as at Berkeley) have done a marvelous job of relating the two. I doubt that Jim - a WBT tester - would “blush”. The talented folks that I know and respect in going from emissions to concentrations clearly know what they are doing - as seen in published cites we have mentioned many times on this list.</b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Still - Crispin is providing no cites for his beliefs. </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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This is a ridiculous situation. We have an entire sector of international and national development being bent to suit the careers of certain anointed actors who don't wish their preliminary works tossed aside because they overreached, or didn't check their
math, or avoided peer review. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL8: This (“<i class="">anointed actors</i>”) is ad hominem and highly derogatory. Again no cites to justify any part of the three allegations.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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This nonsense about a 'WHO' approved PM emission rate 'delivering countable future health benefits for the user' is intolerable. It is junk science. The objections to it are very technical: concatenated assumptions based on several other layers of assumptions
cannot make predictions of the future health of stove users. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL9: This is a mis-statement of what is “approved”. Tiers are given - only ranges on the emission levels that have been released. We have tiers because the Lima group knew that nothing firmer could be justified at this time. I for one believe that less emission is logically related to health (as with cigarette smoke - including second hand smoke). There is more behind this belief in the harmful inhalation of cigarette smoke than WHO use of death and illness statistics. For instance, CSU is even now testing inhalations from stoves with volunteers. Other less drastic testing on animals and cadavers also provides data. Believable to all but a few.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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It happens that at this time, this discussion is critical. The ISO Draft International Standard for stove testing is being circulated, complete with a set of 'voluntary' emission standards that were forced into it over the objections of the experts. Everyone
knows that Berkeley, GACC, EPA and WHO are behind this - they have been for years. This is not new, it is just ‘more'. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL10: This continuing reference to “the experts” is weird. I know quite a few of those participating on the various ISO panels as well as Crispin’s “ expert” detractors. F</b><b class="">rom my perspective, t</b><b class="">here is no comparison in either numbers or expertise. The intent here is to claim better expertise from his “the experts” (un-named) than those many of us know from </b><span style="text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><b class="">“</b><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><i class="">Berkeley, GACC, EPA and WHO” . </i></font></span></div><div><span style="text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I can’t comment fully on Crispin’s final sentence since I have no idea what it means. But yes - we are (thankfully) getting closer to an international decision on a voluntary standard, so one would be greatly surprised if “not new” and “more</b></font></span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" class=""><b class="">” didn’t appear.</b></font><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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Nikhil, who observes much about this and other policy matters, is raising the flag of falsity over this abuse of science, trust and position. Which hand, at any of those institutions, lifted a finger to sort this matter out? No, rather, they perpetuate it
carefully, consistently, repeatedly, promoting themselves as essential to developing countries and their domestic energy policy decision-making processes. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> <span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL11: Again totally ad hominem - still without a cite (and cites are plentiful in the “voluntary” standards backup documents). Not sure why Crispin found it appropriate to put “voluntary” in quotes. I was equally disturbed by Nikhil’s recent flippant reply to Tom Miles - and will get to that ASAP. I deemed this response more critical.</b><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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The bandwagon we should get on is the killing of the WBT, and the tradeable aDALY. Then we should get on the bandwagon that puts the user and their context first. We should do it now. It is quite important. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b class="">[RWL12: I started by saying I could agree with nothing in Crispin’s message. But I do agree with the last three sentences. However my original blanket objection stands, since Crispin’s first sentence advice is 100% opposite from mine. The WBT IS valuable and should stay until replaced with something better - with agreement from other than Crispin’s “<i class="">the experts</i>”. All “the experts” I trust are advocating continued use of the WBT. </b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I don’t know the markets where aDALY’s are “tradable” - and doubt one exists.</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Others in any agreement on any of my 12 responses?</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class="">Ron</b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b></div><div><b class=""><br class=""></b><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-US" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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Sincerely </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Tom: <br class="">
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What you mean is that technical discussions outside of boiling water are beyond the comprehension and that "practical alternatives" to hocus pocus of Kirk Smith's premature mortality claims are to be concocted by different speculative assumptions and misleading
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<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">------------------------</font></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">Nikhil Desai</font></div>
<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif; font-size:small" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class="">
<i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i></font></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Tom Miles <span dir="ltr" class="">
<<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class="">
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<div class="m_3324902857076983535WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">Nikhil,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">The “bandwagon” of this list is sound technical discussion. It is not a platform for your personal crusades. You highlight whatever criticism is convenient for your cause and repeat these same themes without ever proposing practical alternatives.
Give use something useful and we might listen.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Tom <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><a name="m_3324902857076983535__MailEndCompose" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></a></p>
<span class=""></span><p class="MsoNormal"><b class="">From:</b> Nikhil Desai [mailto:<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a><wbr class="">]
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<b class="">Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 29, 2017 6:50 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</a>>; Karin Troncoso <<a href="mailto:karintroncoso@gmail.com" class="">karintroncoso@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] News: National Geographic on promotion of gas stoves over improved woodstoves - in Guatemala<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Tom:<br class="">
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Oh, dear. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">If you cared to read the NatiGeo piece and what I wrote, it ought to have been evident that it is NatGeo which faults the "efficient stove" for being too small to hold the tamale pot. <br class="">
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I don't know how to cook tamales, and won't speak whereof I know nothing, unlike the Berkeley crowd. If STI's stove was too small and the user had to cook on open fire once a month. <br class="">
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Rather, my criticism was aimed at the ludicrous Kirk Smith et al. campaign against "stacking", mindless recitation of WHO SFC "Guidelines" (based in turn on Smith, et al. cookery of facts), and the goose chase to ""<span style="font-size:11.5pt; font-family:"Georgia",serif" class="">determine
whether the use of gas stoves improves air quality and the health of children."</span><br class="">
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What is indefensible cannot be justified by repeating the lies a thousand times. This WHO/IHME bandwagon is against the principles of this group, against the poor, a gravy train for researchers whose work cannot be laughed at enough. <br class="">
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But someone has to read first. <br class="">
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Seems to me Radha Muthiah knows whereof she speaks. <br class="">
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Nikhil<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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On Aug 19, 2017, at 11:48 AM, <<a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" class="">tmiles@trmiles.com</a>> wrote:<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Nikhil,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">We are patiently waiting to see what Nikhil Desai will personally contribute to the health and welfare of people like those described in the National Geographic article. I am sure that Stove Team International would appreciate a generous
donation. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">I am proud to say that Stove Team International is lead by my cousin. Like similar NGOs, she and her partners and supporters personally donate substantially each year to reduce trauma and improve the health conditions that she previously
worked as a volunteer to remedy. Instead of just picking out what is easy to criticize from a limited article, visit the families who are using the various stoves and see what they think of Stove Team. Your opinion doesn’t matter to them. They see the improvement
in their lives. They are satisfied customers. If they weren’t, Stove Team and the many generous organizations like them wouldn’t still be in operation after several years.
<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">These organizations and their beneficiaries have clearly been helped by the focus on stoves and health. The benefits to family health are usually the impacts of improved stoves that users most cite. Set aside your personal war on Berkeley
and GACC for a moment. What is your plan to improve their health? How would it differ from what is being done? Since you seem to be more concerned with money than with the livelihoods of the individuals, how would you fund such an effort? <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Tom <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b class="">From:</b> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.<wbr class="">bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Nikhil Desai<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Saturday, August 19, 2017 7:21 AM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.<wbr class="">org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> [Stoves] News: National Geographic on promotion of gas stoves over improved woodstoves - in Guatemala<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"> <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">A nice piece of "Crisis Reporting", after WHO declared solid fuels use as a global crisis. NatGeo will go much farther in moving minds than GBD and HAPIT. <br class="">
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This story is really about "stacking" and dose-response mechanisms. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">"Their efficient woodstove, a knee-high concrete cylinder donated by an aid group called StoveTeam International, is too small to support the tamale pot. So, as she does about once a month, Perez has fired up the old wood-burning stove,
a crumbling, chimney-less brick ruin whose smoke pours directly into the unventilated kitchen. Everyone notices the smoke, but it’s a familiar annoyance—and compared with the daily challenge of affording food and fuel, it’s a minor one."<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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So what does the UC-Berkeley research do - instead of putting the focus on "efficient woodstove" being only one type and size, going wild that "the indoor air pollution was still far above guidelines set by the World Health Organization." <br class="">
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Not the general guidelines but the particular guidelines for Household Fuel Combustion, influenced heavily by the Reviews and blessings of UC-Berkeley team in the first place. As part of the war against solid fuels, which they (and WHO) DEFINE to be "dirty".<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">There is the usual reciting of globalization mantras: <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 0.15pt;" class="">"Wood-burning household fires and inefficient stoves cause broader suffering, too. The firewood trade promotes deforestation and also provides cover for timber
smuggling, since wood from rare trees can be hidden among logs from more common species. The smoke from cook fires pollutes the air outdoors as well as indoors, especially in cities. And as a major source of black carbon—a sunlight-absorbing pollutant—the
world’s billions of household fires are also thought to be accelerating the effects of climate change, speeding the disruption of monsoon cycles and the melting of glaciers."</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">But the GACC CEO's frankness is admirable - <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 0.15pt;" class="">Muthiah and other stove experts emphasize that there is no single ideal stove or ideal fuel, as every household, every community, and every culture has different
needs and priorities: a stove designed for rural Guatemala may well be completely impractical in Nairobi."</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">If so, why bother with ISO "international standards" exercise?
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">I for one don't think an international research team is warranted to "<span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">determine whether the use of gas stoves improves air quality and the health of children."</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> </span>Of
course it does that and much else. It is the precise quantification, and its applicability in quantitative forecasting, that I find to be morally repugnant and waste of public money in creating unproductive research jobs. <u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">"<span style="font-family: Georgia, serif; letter-spacing: 0.15pt;" class="">Thompson and a network of collaborators are now expanding this research to India, Peru, and Rwanda, studying how gas-stove adoption—and associated improvements
in household air quality—affects the health of mothers and children."</span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></p>
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Next -- HAPIT for cats? (I loved this attached picture). <br class="">
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<b class=""><a href="http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/proof/2017/07/guatemala-cook-stoves/" target="_BLANK" class="">Three Billion People Cook Over Open Fires With Deadly Consequences</a></b>: In Guatemala, locally made cookstoves are helping combat toxic smoke—but
economics and tradition keep many people from using them. By Michelle Nijhuis, August 14, 2017. National Geographic
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