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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear Friends <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Addressing this item only, because Ron stopped reading when he would a hook he could use to avoid reading the documents needed to understand the SeTAR Centre’s HTP and the even more relevant CSI
which includes the contextual testing protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">“</span><b>[RWL5: I’ll get back to this - but I repeat that South Africa seems to support the general concept of monitoring the change in water properties in pots sitting on stoves.”<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The metric that you objected to and mischaracterise, Ron, is the heat flux into the pot measured per unit area. It a measure of the ability of the stove to deliver heat into a cooking pot normalised for size. This overcome the severe limitation
imposed in the WBT (and don’t pretend there is more than one WBT on the discussion table) which prescribes the use of a ‘standard pot’ without a lid.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you would read further you could find that the important assessment
<i>by the cooks</i> of their stove’s performance when it is working well (either high or low power, makes no difference) can be captured using this new metric that has not been used in stove testing before. It is used to assess the cooking pot (in the pot)
under a condition the cook determines to be useful – for whatever purpose(s) they have.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When the stove behaviour is replicated in the lab, care is taken to ensure that the candidate stoves replicate the requirement for maximum and minimum cooking power. If they can do it, it means the stove is as controllable as the cooks
in the intended market require. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The cooking can be boiling chips in oil, heating water, steaming rice – it does not matter at all. What is needed is to determine that the required performance can be achieved (or better). Water is used for this, but not boiled because
boiling greatly interferes with the accurate measurement of heat gained and replication of the test sequence is made difficult.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The CSI tests using water heating (see the paper From WBT to WHT, referring to the Water Heating Test) were very successful at determining the thermal performance without boiling anything. The performance of a stir-fry wok meal can be characterised
by a pot-heating rate. Any working fluid can be used for this, not only water.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you want to determine the cooking power of a stove used for dep frying, this test can be replicated using cooking in in the pot and for the coolant in the heat exchanger, and the test sheet is set up to be able to calculate properly
using any fluid, heat exchanger coil material, and can even used different working fluids in the pot and the heat exchanger circuit.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All this has been worked out several years ago. It is one of the many reasons the CSI test method is used in preference to the WBT.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Xavier and ccs<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span>Thanks for a courteous reply with good questions. See a start below. (Start because you gave me a lot of homework. Thanks especially for providing a great set of cites at the end (but
no time yet to review any.)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 30, 2017, at 5:13 PM, Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Dear Ron,</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">« </span><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The ISO process is open to every country - and is progressing well mostly (I listen in from time to time). »</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The gates are open, but I don’t know how to pass through them. Sally Seitz and Ranyee Chiang kindly asked me if wanted to get updates from the TC 285 discussions, I said yes. Several times. I am still waiting.
I asked the AFNOR in Paris, but it doesn’t seem like having France as part of the TC 285 is one of their priorities.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The ISO is a black box to me. If anyone can direct me to regular sources of information or ways I can join, I’d be most thankful.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL1: Your statement that ISO is a black box answers many of the questions below. It is imperative that you learn how ISO works. Your best route would seem to be AFNOR - since you
are French. I work only through ANSI - not ISO.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>I presume Sally and Ranyee thought that you would start with AFNOR. Updates have been given at the last several ETOS meetings and I have written about those updates (which were very
well done). We are going to miss Ranyee.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>Can anyone help bring Xavier and AFNOR together? I repeat to Xavier - until you are part of the ISO process - you will be making a mistake in decrying it.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">« The WBT IS valuable »</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Can you explain what is valuable about the WBT?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL2: My favorite on this topic is Jim Jetter. See presentations at several ETHOS meetings. I speak selfishly when I note that TLUDs shine at the WBT. I suspect some don’t like
the WBT because their favorite technology doesn’t shine. By shine and value I mean that the WBT is behind most of the tier rankings - which long ago were accepted unanimously as the right way to proceed with stove improvement at this time. To me the WBT
is all about improvement. If you can’t measure something, it won’t be improved. I disagree with those especially who say that there is no proven connection between measured CO and PM values in the lab and in the field. If not obtained with today’s WBT,
what test is to be preferred? (answer in next question.)</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">« and should stay until replaced with something better »</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There is already something better! Better is not right word: there is already something valid, as opposed to the invalidity of the WBT. There’s be something valid for a long time.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">There are the CSI method and HTP protocol.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">They are here, I sent the link to you long ago:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5rmmRmIsdlnQlRQX3A1cXVOQ3M?usp=sharing"><span style="color:purple">https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B5rmmRmIsdlnQlRQX3A1cXVOQ3M?usp=sharing</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tell me why you think they cannot replace the WBT?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL3: </b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>The documents I found at your above cite were from the South African SETAR. I stopped reading when I read this sentence in the last of the four there: “<i>A cooking session using a </i><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i>system with a heat flux rate of 2 W/cm 2 will boil 5 liters of water in under 25 minutes.” </i></b><b>Sounds like a WBT to me - and the ISO process is encouraging such diversity in different countries. But ISO has accepted the
challenge of an international version - not mandated to be used by everyone. Somebody please tell me I am missing something on WBTs.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>The first (HTP) document similarly measures water temperature rise - albeit a little differently. I view the accuracy of the results to be so dependent on the user that whether
it is one run with water loss in an uncovered pan or only concentrating on the regime where water loss is minimal and rate of temperature rise makes little difference to me. I am using the term WBT to mean that a water-containing pot is involved. I may be
wrong but this HTP test seems to assume there is no production of charcoal. I predict this lack will cause a change at some point (and may be the reason we hear little favorable about TLUDs from South Africa (even though there are several capable TLUD manufacturers
in South Africa. I hope they will chime in on the value of a stove test that assumes charcoal has no value.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>For time reasons, I have chosen not to read the other two documents at your recommended site. Apologies in advance for that lapse and for apparently not saying something earlier
about this site - which seems to strongly support the use of pots of water in stove testing (as do EVERY other test procedure I am aware of). No reason to talk of cooking rice or boiling oils- when boiling water is so universal.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Tom, this question is also addressed to you, since last time, I think you were saying there wasn’t yet an alternative.<br>
What is so unique about the WBT that cannot be done by the CSI nor HTP?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All “the experts” I trust are advocating continued use of the WBT.</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron, can you please list all the experts who, now, today, still advocate continued use of the WBT?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I know there is you, and there is Dean Still with whom I discussed over emails.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Can you please name these experts Ron?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <b>[RWL4: As I have said before, I consider Jim Jetter as especially knowledgeable. John Mitchell, also of EPA, knows a huge amount about stove testing. Look at who has spoken at ETHOS meetings on these topics. Ranyee Chiang
will be hugely missed at GACC. Professor Tami Bond is great - as well as some of her graduate students. Berkeley is full of competent stove people - starting with Dr. Michael Johnson. See </b><a href="http://berkeleyair.com/about-us/staff/">http://berkeleyair.com/about-us/staff/</a> <b>for
others who really know their stove measurementstuff. I am not claiming support from Professor Kirk Smith, but his name is on at least one paper with Jetter. And both DoE and EPA funded 3-4 groups - mostly at Universities. I won’t try to mention all their
names, but they are at schools such as CSU and U Washington. Again - see their presentations at ETHOS. No guarantee they support the WBT - but I look forward to hearing if any of those mentioned disown it.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>On this list, I especially list Tom Miles and Andrew Heggie as likely supporters of the WBT. </b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>Dean Still has been in this a long time and I also trust his judgement - which in part goes back to a premier early stove investigator - Dr. Sam Baldwin. I have talked to Sam
quite often and have never heard any concern that the WBT was inappropriate. My concern was about making char and using the “denominator” equation - which seems to be the main dispute which I have been having for years with Crispin. And also you??</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>One person I am excluding from this list is myself. I have no experience with monitoring either CO or PM. I especially like measuring water evaporated because I have made a
lot of progress on char-making stove improvement by using a simplified WBT. I have heard Kirk Harris say the same.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>Apologies to anyone I missed or mislabeled.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">You are talking about « Crispin’s » experts. I cannot help but think about the people who reviewed the CSI and HTP and highlighted the problems with the WBT.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The 2 (long) lists are below this email.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL5: I’ll get back to this - but I repeat that South Africa seems to support the general concept of monitoring the change in water properties in pots sitting on stoves.</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron, can you please critique their work? Critique the reviews or the studies? What is it that you don’t agree with?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron, or anyone, can you please share a list of reviews of the WBT protocol?</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">As you said Ron, the WBT has been used for decades. It shouldn’t be difficult then to get a list of reviews by external researchers showing how scientifically valid the WBT is.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL6: I can assure you that Jim Jetter, who has written extensively on stove testing, defends the WBT. He also leads the ISO effort - which WOULD NOT be finishing if there were any
doubt as to the validity of the WBT. If it is not yet clear, I am claiming you are in a small minority of “experts”.</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">7 months ago, the 26/01, I asked you Ron on this List several very specific questions, referring to the WBT issues.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">You never responded.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL7: Apologies if I didn’t respond, but I do know that I contacted many of the principal authors (and I think Riva) and think I might have reported. I am pretty sure that the basic
WBT approach was not in doubt with them. What was in question was only (??) how many replications needed to be made to ALWAYS achieve what they considered a minimum level of accuracy.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">I ask you these questions again, they refer to the text of the paper of Riva and al., paper that you can find here:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves"><span style="color:purple">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Ron, in the WBT,</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l16 level1 lfo1">
do you contest the role of thermodynamic uncertainties (viz. variable steam production and boiling point determination) on results repeatability? Can you ensure there are no uncertainties?
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>RWL: I cannot so ensure - since most of my efforts along these lines was more than 20 years ago. I am sure that there are uncertainties, since many properties DO vary with altitude.
But I have seen no uncertainty that applies to placing stoves at a single testing center into incorrect tiers (as measured to tenths of a tier). Boiling point determination can be different - but when you run for an hour, this is of disappearing importance,
compared to who did the testing. And, if you don’t use a WBT, what do you replace it with?</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l8 level1 lfo2">
Of if there are, can you ensure they have no effect on results repeatability? How?<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: I believe the existing uncertainties are acceptable - being much smaller than other known causes for measurement differences. Is there any group anywhere that has avoided all
the concerns you think exist? A much bigger error for me lies with those who claim you should ignore the weight of any charcoal produced.</b><br>
<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo3">
do you have an answer to the questions about the rationale of some calculations raised by Zhang et al.?<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: Give me more to go on.</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
do you support the statistical approach recommended by this standardised laboratory-based test (the WBT) to evaluate, communicate and compare performances and emissions of tested stoves, i.e. using the arithmetic average of three replicate tests? How do you
guarantee this statistical approach ensure good comparison of stove performances?<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: Yes I can support the use of just three tests - if they are “relatively” close together in all tier statistics. If one test if vastly different than the other two, then additional
testing should take place. The main reason for accepting three is trying to keep costs low. I gather that one can make some useful statistical importance with just two tests.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>The arithmetic average is not the only data that should be given - each result should be (and is usually, I believe) given. <br>
<br>
</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo5">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></li></ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Best,</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Xavier</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="color:#1F497D">Reviews of the HTP and CSI</span></u><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;background:white"><span style="color:#1F497D">The HTP was officially reviewed by an external expert group as required by the IWA 2012:11. The World Bank office in Beijing commissioned SGS Netherlands which provided
a report after investigating the equipment, test protocol and calculations.</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: Where do I go read that? (It is getting too late to find, read, and report back). This one looks important.</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;background:white"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;background:white"><span style="color:#1F497D">The Ulaanbaatar Clean Air Project test method for approving stove performance is the HTP before the CSI contextual portion was added, though the test conducted is in
fact based on current observed practice. The Ulaanbaatar Clean Air Project test method has been reviewed and/or approved by:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Mongolian University of Science and Technology, Prof Tseyen-Oidov and others<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Ulaanbaatar Clean Air Project, Operations Manager & Chief Engineer, Ms D Tsendsuren<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Dr B Odonkhishig and Dr Jargalsaikhan Buriad, head and Director, respectively, of the SEET Laboratory in Ulaanbaatar<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
SGS Laboratories, Netherlands (who conduct most of the stove tests for EU certification), WB contract<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Team experts under Akeo Fukuyama, from the Environment Division of JICA contractor Suuri-Keikaku Co. Ltd.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Millennium Challenge Account – Mongolia (MCA-Mongolia is the local branch of the Millennium Challenge C<a name="_GoBack"></a>orporation, USA) which spend $20m on stove subsidies based on the results of the tests<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
National University of Mongolia, Prof Lodoysamba, Innovation Manager, Department of Research (nuclear physicist and air quality expert)<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l3 level2 lfo6;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
GTZ building energy efficiency program in Ulaanbaatar, headed by Ruth Erlbeck (reviewed by her head technical man and a young German MSc physicist Mr Henning Schulte-Huxel who wrote a lot of the chemical balance calculation block on the FUELS tab)<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: Please correct me if wrong, but I don’t believe this test is at all applicable to cook stoves; it may or may not have some value for cook stoves - but I doubt seriously that
this testing involves boiling water.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l12 level2 lfo7;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify;background:white"><span style="color:#1F497D">The CSI Test Protocol which includes the contextual test method appended to the HTP test method and calculations has been reviewed by:</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
World Bank technical review team for Indonesia (their infrastructure engineer and technical reviewer)<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
College of Engineering, China Agricultural University (CAU), Prof Renjie Dong, head of the National Key Laboratory for Biogas, reviewed it at the request of the Senior Economist heading the CSI-Indonesia Pilot<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Yixiang Zhang, PhD candidate, College of engineering, CAU. He has published several reviews of certain aspects of the test method and its calculations.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Degan Ostogic, Lead Energy specialist (engineer) in the WB Energy and Extractives supervising the CSI-Indonesia Stove Pilot, he also required a demonstration of the method in action.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
The head of stove testing at a Western nation’s national regulatory body has reviewed the method for generating the Technical Test from a set of Cooking Tests. This provides the contextual element of the CSI Method.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Prof Harold Annegarn, nuclear physicist, then at the Department of Geography Environmental Management and Energy Studies, University of Johannesburg<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Engineer David Beritault, formerly with GERES, for years the head of the Cambodian stove testing lab and now with CARITAS Switzerland, made a very detailed review of the concepts and calculations underlying the method. He is a co-author of ISO TC-285 WG2, 19867
Part 2.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
James Robinson, BSc (Eng), MSc (Eng), MSc (aeronautics), former head of the SeTAR Centre, University of Johannesburg.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Dr Tafadzwa Makonese, Head of the SeTAR Centre, Research Village, University of Johannesburg<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l13 level2 lfo8;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
Indonesian BNI (National Standards Body technical committee) made a conceptual review with the intention of replacing their current Draft National Standard (which at present uses an early SeTAR Centre heat transfer efficiency test protocol, the forerunner of
the HTP.<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>[RWL: I haven’t had time to review any of these, but note again that the CSI test does involve boiling water. I don’t yet see it worth my while to review any of these. Pleas give
a better cite for your top two of the above and I will try to report on its relevance to the issue of retaining the existing WBT.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><b>The following list looks quite interesting, but too late to try to look at any, much less all. I’ll try to get at these ASAP, but would appreciate knowing of those that take specific
exception anything I have said above.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><b>Xavier - please tell me where I have let you down in the above. Anyone else find my responses insufficient?</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Ron<br>
</b><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<ul style="margin-top:0cm" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;text-align:justify;mso-list:l11 level2 lfo9;background:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></li></ul>
</ul>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span style="color:#1F497D">Papers pointing at issues with the WBT</span></u><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l7 level1 lfo10"><span style="color:#1F497D">Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for improved and traditional three–stone fire cookstoves</span><br>
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves"><span style="color:purple">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308898807_Fuzzy_interval_propagation_of_uncertainties_in_experimental_analysis_for_improved_and_traditional_three_-_Stone_fire_cookstoves</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l15 level1 lfo11"><span style="color:#1F497D">Key differences of performance test protocols for household biomass cookstoves. Twenty-Second Domestic Use of Energy, IEEE 2014:1–11.</span><br>
<a href="http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/"><span style="color:purple">http://energyuse.org.za/document-archive/</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<span style="color:#1F497D">To access the file, select DUE [Domestic Use of energy COnference]. Select DUE 2014. Select PROCEEDINGS. Select paper by Zhang etal (PDFs arranged alphabetically).</span><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l9 level1 lfo12"><span style="color:#1F497D">Performance testing for monitoring improved biomass stove interventions: experiences of the Household Energy and Health Project. Energy Sustainable Dev 2007;11:57–70.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br>
<a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf"><span style="color:purple">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.783&rep=rep1&type=pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l18 level1 lfo13"><span style="color:#1F497D">The shortcomings of the U.S. protocol</span><br>
<a href="http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd"><span style="color:purple">http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1534&context=etd</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l6 level1 lfo14"><span style="color:#1F497D">Influence of testing parameters on biomass stove performance and development of an improved testing protocol</span><br>
<a href="https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf"><span style="color:purple">https://envirofit.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/2012-influence-of-testing-parameters.pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l17 level1 lfo15"><span style="color:#1F497D">How many replicate tests are needed to test cookstove performance and emissions? — Three is not always adequate.</span><br>
<a href="http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf"><span style="color:purple">http://gadgillab.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/D-13-00075-Wang-et-al._final.pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo16"><span style="color:#1F497D">Systematic and conceptual errors in standards and protocols for thermal performance of biomass stoves</span><br>
<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves"><span style="color:purple">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/309689616_Systematic_and_conceptual_errors_in_standards_and_protocols_for_thermal_performance_of_biomass_stoves</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l10 level1 lfo17"><span style="color:#1F497D">Quality assurance for cookstoves testing centers: calculation of expanded uncertainty for WBT<br>
</span><a href="http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf"><span style="color:purple">http://www.newdawnengineering.com/website/library/Stove%20Testing/Testing%20Protocols/American%20WBT,%20CCT,%20KPT/2014%20March%20WBT%204.2.x%20Uncertainty,%20Gorrity,%20M.pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo18"><span style="color:#1F497D">Key factors of thermal efficiency test protocols</span><br>
<a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf"><span style="color:purple">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1000.3936&rep=rep1&type=pdf</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:#1F497D;margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l14 level1 lfo19">
Towards a standard for clean solid-fuelled cookstoves<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves"><span style="color:purple">https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274706950_Towards_a_standard_for_clean_solid-fuelled_cookstoves</span></a><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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