Is it that you feel debate is over, or that this the wrong place for the debate? Philip<br><br>Sent from my Huawei Mobile<div class="quote" style="line-height: 1.5"><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Is this Off Topic?? Fwd: Re: [biochar] Where to discuss STOVES AND CARBON offsets and drawdown<br>From: Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu><br>To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>,Nikhil Desai <ndesai@alum.mit.edu>,Tom Miles <tmiles@trmiles.com>," biochar@yahoogroups.com" <biochar@yahoogroups.com><br>CC: <br><br><br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><html>
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With apologies to all Stovers (including Crispin),<br>
<br>
___ I ____ am stopping this topic on the Stoves Listserv. No
further reply.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/12/2017 10:08 AM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<h3>1. eschatology (n.)<o:p></o:p></h3>
<p class="definition">the branch of theology that is
concerned with such final things as death and Last
Judgment; Heaven and Hell; the ultimate destiny of
humankind<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">></span>Very
appropriate choice of words as atmospheric CO2 levels rise and
could well contribute to (what you wrote):.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> to turn the whole planet into a verdant
garden of delight.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">></span>But
probably not "delight". More like a "hothouse garden
eventually supporting less than half the number of the world's
current population"
<span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">It
is that sort of catastrophism which is the natural driver of
the eschatological doom-mongers striving to make money from
people’s ignorance of their own planet. Good grief, people
in the future are going to laugh at our gullibility. Even if
it were true, that Western industrial society causes
hot/cold, rain/drought, deserts/swamps, why is it the
problem of the world’s poor to solve it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">></span>(which
means the end of standards of living as known today, but
maninly suffered through environmental disruption, war, famine
and disease inflicted on our descendants, unless drawdown is
accomplished.)<span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">I
think that is speculative gibberish. As anyone know who
follows this matter closely, the entire edifice of climate
catastrophism is built upon the projections of computer
models which have been, repeatedly and completely, proven to
have no skill at all in predicting anything.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">This
stands quite apart from people predicting (saying), “cooking
stoves increase atmospheric CO2 and that will lead to
expanding deserts and starvation…” (etc) while 5 minutes
later saying that stoves create snow and ice by the same
mechanism. If you claim that anything that is possible to
happen is caused by witches, then when something happens, it
is proof that it was witches behind the whole thing.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Did
you know there is a better correlation between the global
temperature and the number of pirates than the concentration
of CO2?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="color:windowtext">></span>Your implied
comparison between opinions by contemporaries of witches in
the 1600s and current opinions of scientists in the 2000s is a
bit of a streach. I'll interprete that as an attempt at
humor.
<span class="moz-smiley-s1">:-)</span><span
class="moz-smiley-s1"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">It
was not an implied comparison – it is a perfect example.
Read the letter from the Pope to Germany about the
hurricanes they were experience as the Earth cooled in the
1600’s. Terrible storms and famines. He said they are fully
aware that the weather is controlled by witches and yet you
tolerate them in every community. They responded by
‘identifying’ then burning 2500 of them in only three German
provinces. Each day that passed without a major storm was
proof that the ‘cure’ was effective, supporting the
consensus that the weather is controlled by witches. Bad
weather, on the other hand proved, each time, that there was
still more witches to be outed and burned, further
confirming the consensus. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Stoves
and Health:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Compare
the claims for ‘health benefits’ of three stoves and health
studies being conducted right now by Fresh Air
(Netherlands). The one in Kyrgyzstan (which I have reported
on previously) shows clearly that when on has a poorly
constructed, badly burning stove (whatever the fuel) that
leaks a significant fraction of emissions into the home
either all the time or when it is opened for use and
refueling, and replaces it with a really good and properly
installed stove, there are immediate, statistically
significant improvements in health. In the other locations
the evidence is far less conclusive because of confounding
factors.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Before
the Kyrgyzstan study, where was the proof that stoves can
improve health, and by how much? Was there quantification of
emissions, concentrations, exposure and consequences? It is
at least <i>possible</i> to appeal to ‘science’ and ‘data’
on this matter, but it is not possible to do that with
aDALY’s because they are science fiction, and a very
important part of the current conversation about performance
and forecasting possible impact. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">If
‘drawdown’ can achieve a cooler, drier, stormier,
increasingly desertified world with slower growing plants
and shorter growing seasons, it will be ‘magic’ if it can
support more people in better conditions. I do not yet
believe in magic.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">You
don’t have to invoke the End Times in order to sell TLUD’s
that cook well and make charcoal. Just get on with it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Eschatologically
yours*<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"><br>
(Cribbed from the heading notes of the song <a name="w11"
moz-do-not-send="true">"<i>We Will All Go Together When We
Go</i>"</a> by Tom Lehrer)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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